DIY Red Dragon Pumps, gathering ideas.

[douggiestyle]

hahn, no offense taken.
with a proper pump the engine in the mag could give excellent results, its hard to say. i doudt i will ever do any head to head comparisons. im thinking that a 70 watt mag 7 would perform (as a modified product) similarly to a 70 watt laguna. cant blaim heat 100% percent on the windings. slippage will also create alot of heat. i would bet that the pump on a mag creates a lot slippage.

 

[hahnmeister]

No manderx, nobody else is using my account now. Those two sentences are talking about two different sets of circumstances though... thats why they sound like they contradict themselves.

With pumps, aside from the cord and some electronics in the pump, the major component inside the pump is the windings. Pumps are not pure resistive loads, they induce electromagnetic fields to spin the magnet in the motor end. There is plenty of metal mass in these windings, or rotors (if solid), to carry a current much higher than the motor needs, but the smaller the rotors/windings, the smaller the EM field. Its kinda like placing a magnet that is too large in a pump... the pump has to work extra hard on the electrical end to match the magnet (or not so much the magnet, but the work that the impeller is doing).

Dont get me wrong though, there are other factors... the gap between the windings/rotors and the magnet determines the amount of voltage needed to overcome that gap, the size/quality of the magnet (a weak magnet means more electricity needed to overcome).

I dont want to get into it any more Manderx... it just isnt worth it here, and Im sure there are people way better qualified to explain it than myself. I just have a feel for it, and know what some limiting factors are. Its very complicated, with as many variables as protein skimmer design (do I go with a shorter skimmer and less head-pressure for more air, or a taller skimmer with less air but a longer contact time?).

I just want to convey the idea that there is no real way to overcome the limitations of a cheaply made pump by manipulating the impeller. You have to crack open the pump itself and start with the electronics inside.

Back to the DIY Red Dragons... any upddates Creetin?

 

[smjtkj]

I have a bit of news! I got the maxflo 2400 in. It appears that the fitting used to hold the impeller on is stainless steel. I dremeled the heck out of it and got no copper dust. And it is hard as heck. I have been playing with it and getting some cool results. At the low head heights of a Bubble King, I am using only 55 watts and over 100 SCFH. At 24 inches of head pressure (Brute trash can), I am at 85 watts and a hair under 100 scfh. I know I am getting more than that because I am feeding the venturi with 3/4 in hose. When I put the air meter on it I have to restrict the heck out of it and am still getting those readings. Anyone know where I can get a meter with bigger fittings. The one I have has 1/4 inch threads. I would love to measure without killing the reading with the meter. Also, the adverised sizes of the inlet and outlet are misleading though not intentionally. The inlet and outlet of the pump is only 1 inch. I wish this thing had a bigger outlet. I am getting the best results with PF4. I have tried pf5, pf13 and I also built a custom needlewheel for it. 6 layers of Pf4 makes this baby rock in the 24 inches of water. I tried 3, 4, 5, and 6 layers. I will let you guys know of any changes. Boy I would love to see a custom volute on this thing! Anyone with a CNC want to cut some parts? By the way the PF is .59.
Mike

 

[BeanAnimal]

Very simple folks....

Current: conductor diameter (circular mils) and conductor material determine ampacity. That amapacity is then derated depending on other factors (such as insulation breakdown temperature, proximity to other conductors, etc).

Voltage: The voltage rating of a "wire" is determined by the insulation on that particular wire, not the conductor diameter.

Bean

 

[hahnmeister]

Cool, glad you are here Bean. Do you have any input on types on types of pumps, pf, magnets, etc? I get what you are saying as far as the simple part (its all based on tesla's ideas and the KVL/ V=IR, where you lower the current as much as possible to pass a higher voltage through more resistance, preserving wattage/power) but with magnets, coils/rotors/windings, etc... things seem to get more complicated. Im sure Im confusing some aspects of linear motors, synchron, asyndhron, DC, etc. I can understand the appeal to Klaus of a DC motor: no power factor, less manipulation of ideal power curves... he can pretty much use just one motor, and by changing the voltage, control the speed, and by controlling the current, control the torque. If only AC motors were so simple. Heck, start adding in 2 and 4 poles to the 3-phase motors, and then things get even more complicated.

I suppose I should narrow down my questions... With the AE590 pumps (Gen-X/Sedra clones), the pf is .3... dismal. The pump also runs hot (as one would expect with such a low efficiency rating). My suspicion is that the pumps are made with less copper, and weaker magnets... causing the real power to be much higher than the rms. Whatcha think?

smjtkj, is that with a meshwheel even or pre-mod? Can you post pics? 45watts... wow... sounds great. What is the PF on that? Hows the noise?

Wow.... 45 watts, nearly 3000lph, and only a 1" outlet... thats killer. I agree, I wonder how much further this pump could go. Something tells me that although Klaus' mods are needed in his case, its partly because the pumps might be running faster and/or hotter, and thats the reason for the Ti shaft and the anti-calcification loop.

Curious, what is the interior impeller well/volute diameter of the 2400? Can you also show the impeller... Im thinking it might be best if I just try to match up some newer max-flo impellers with my 5000 and 7000 pumps. Im thinking the PT-459 impeller for the 5000, and the PT-461 for the 7000 (PT-465 for the 10,000 as its really the same pump as the 2905)... (normally, the 5000 gets the PT-460, 7000 gets the PT-462, and the 10,000 gets the PT-464). Those model numbers look like they added/subtracted a digit to the brass impeller's model numbers, and came up with new model numbers for the SS ones.

Thanks for finding out that critical info on the impellers smjtkj. The 2400 looks like the ideal pump for our purposes here.

 

[smjtkj]

Hahn, The wattage is 55 watts at the BK chamber level height (16 inches or so) Power factor is at .59. I was at 85 watts earlier but now at 99 watts. I added some 2 more layers of pf4. It seems that the added layers cost about me 14 watts. Right now it is running at factory wattage. I think I am going to take the last 2 layers off and get back to 85 watts at 24 inches of head presssure. When I get the camera back I will get some shots. I have it loaned to a buddy for a birthday party.

 

[hahnmeister]

Well, its not the wattage so much as the pf. Dont get me wrong, you are prolly doing the right thing, but if you get a high enough pf (or it peaks under peak wattage) then go with the peak pf over the peak wattage. no doubt that the pf will change with depth as well... less air means more water... and more water means more work done, and the closer it will operate to mfg spec.

Im wondering how my 5000 will work... its really the same pump as the max flo 1500 if you look at the specs... same throughput (actually, the 5000 is slightly higher), and same head pressure... and most likely similar impellers. Yet the 5000 is listed at 85 watts and the 1500 is listed at 100watts (interesting to note that its listed as 80 watts in the 220v version). Considering the drop in wattage we are expecting with the meshwheels, the 5000 might be capable of the 100scfh but with the lower wattage, and still maintain a high pf since it will be closest to its original wattage compared to the larger pumps.

5000 with PT-459 impeller or Max-Flo 2400... those seem like the two best pumps for this w/o even needing custom volutes.

 

[smjtkj]

pics

pics

Well, I just tinkered a bit with the pump and venturi and I am at 86 watts at the bottom of the trash can! I am still pulling
100 scfh. or better I say better because of the huge restriction I am putting on the air flow with this meter. Hahn, by the way, it appears that the 5000 is 1250 gph stock and 85 watts. I may be wrong but I think a pump that much smaller with the original volute will have trouble getting 100 scfh.

Here are some pics!

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[smjtkj]

Pics

Pics

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[smjtkj]

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[smjtkj]

pic to show huge restriction

pic to show huge restriction

This is a pic to show how much restriction there is when measuring air!

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PIC of the matala sample next to 6 layers of pf4. This stuff is thick!

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Trash can after turning pump off!

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[Maeda]

So it looks like to me you guys have cracked the code?

 

[gman107]

smjtkj, WOW that garbage can is nasty this is awesome!!!have you tried it with the matala sample yet and your right damn that is thick stuff!

 

[gman107]

that is the first garbage can skimmer i ever saw LOL,now you just need a collection cup for it

 

[smjtkj]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9885148#post9885148 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by gman107
smjtkj, WOW that garbage can is nasty this is awesome!!!have you tried it with the matala sample yet and your right damn that is thick stuff!

That Matala won't come close to fitting without a new larger custom volute!
Again! Anyone want to CNC parts???!!!!

 

[mavgi]

Mike

are you goint to try it on the big skimmer ?

it's look like a great result and the foam awesome on the big garbage can very thick .

i want to see it on the "bubble monster"

 

[smjtkj]

Bubble monster

Bubble monster

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9885225#post9885225 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mavgi
Mike

are you goint to try it on the big skimmer ?

it's look like a great result and the foam awesome on the big garbage can very thick .

i want to see it on the "bubble monster"

I want to, but it is going to be some work. The skimmer is plumbed for 1 1/2 inch and the plumbing is only 1 inch on the Laguna. It did produce a great foam in very little time. I added about 1/2 cup skimmate to the 25 gallons of saltwater. I am going to try to get it done!

Mike

 

[mavgi]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9885189#post9885189 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by smjtkj
That Matala won't come close to fitting without a new larger custom volute!
Again! Anyone want to CNC parts???!!!!

As it's look the matala will not perform good as the PF4 , it will increase the watt of the pump to much and reduce the air LPM .

you pull now 50LPM= 3060LPH it's great result and i don't believe you will get it with the metala , you can make other test try to cut from the matala half size from the thickness to see how this material perform compare to the PF4.

 

[smjtkj]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9885344#post9885344 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mavgi
As it's look the matala will not perform good as the PF4 , it will increase the watt of the pump to much and reduce the air LPM .

you pull now 50LPM= 3060LPH it's great result and i don't believe you will get it with the metala , you can make other test try to cut from the matala half size from the thickness to see how this material perform compare to the PF4.

You know I would almost be willing to say that the pump is doing
at least 15-20% more than I can measure. When I put the air meter on the pump it raises the wattage by about 15 watts. More air equals less wattage. It has the 3/4 in hose pretty loud sucking air. When restricted with the meter, the Dwyer literally whistles and the water level drops a bit.
Mike

 

[mavgi]

i need to check the size of the pump compare to the RD 6500 liter , i want to know if the pump high the same i thinking to order now the ATB big skimmer i am waiting for some answer.....

but this is the skimmer ( 30" high - 17" base):