DIY Sulfur Denitrator

[Belgian Anthias]

The question posed is silly since the flow and sulfur amount will vary based on the level of nitrate entering the reactor and different aquariums will produce variable amounts of nitrate related to a plethora of variables.


Changing the amount form 1% of water volume to 2% for an extra gallon or two of water volume illustrates how imprecise the "rules" proposed are .

.

You still do not get it .

Sulfur amount will NOT!!! vary based on the level of nitrate entering the reactor.
It must be based on the quantity(level x volume) of nitrate entering the reactor daily.


For all readers.: Sulphur quantity depends on the daily to remove quantity of nitrate and the desired nitrate level in the aquarium system, not the starting level. One can follow the practical advice using a 1% reactor till 50 ppm though. The reactor will work fine to reduce the nitrate level to +- 1ppm or less.

The quantity of nitrate entered in the reactor changes with the flow and the nitrate level present in the water. That is why we have to increase the flow when nitrate level descends. The quantity of sulphur needed to remove the daily quantity of nitrate stays the same At a level of 50 ppm or at 2 ppm, sulphur quantity needed to reduce the nitrate level will be the same. ( same daily production!) However, to be able to remove the daily quantity produced the flow has to follow the nitrate level in the system. More flow means more oxygen. The more flow, the bigger the reactor must be to deplete the oxygen entered. Otherwise it will not be possible to remove more than the daily nitrate production making it possible to decrease the nitrate level because we need the same space for de-nitrification.
As I use sulphur for the complete nitrogen cycle and not only for de-nitrification that quantity must be enough to be able to remove the daily production at the nitrate level of 1ppm I desire, which means flow is high in a normal fed mixed reef aquarium. A 1% reactor will keep the nitrate level at 1ppm or below with a daily production of 1 ppm.

The decision to use a 1% reactor or or 2% reactor depends on the desired level(same daily production) When the desired level has to be 0.5 ppm the flow must be doubled to enter enough nitrate in the reactor to be able to remove the same daily quantity of nitrate. So I need a reactor that is twice that big to remove the oxygen. 1% or 2%? To go from 0.5ppm to 0.25ppm flow must be doubled for removing the same daily nitrate production and a reactor twice that big is needed to keep the same room available for de-nitrification.

Not that silly is it?

The advice to use a 1% reactor till 50ppm and a 2 % reactor above 50ppm is a practical advise made by people who have tested BADESS for over seven years en years of practical experience in public aquaria.
To remove the same daily amount of nitrate at 50 ppm or at 1ppm flow must increase by x 50 . From 50ppm to 0.5 ppm flow must increase x 100.
So those guys knew what they where talking about!

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Happy reefing with BADESS

Happy reefing with BADESS

I am closing this discussion. There is nothing to add any more. I only repeat myself.
For people who want to build a workable and easy manageable sulphur based nitrate removal system ( BADESS) that not only reduces nitrate but also controls it I hope they will know what to do. If not, they may always contact me. All information is also available on the Makazi Baharini wikki. The wiki is in Dutch but we are translating the BADESS chapter to English. When this translation is finished we will make the BADESS chapter accessible all rights reserved to the writer which is not me. I only help to translate and rewrite. We hope to finish this within a few months. I will notice when the translation is finished.
BADESS makes it possible to build a natural looking mixed reef aquarium which can be fed normally.
BADESS can be build very cheap. All you need is a plastic container that can be closed air tight and a small pump.

Happy reefing with BADESS!

 

[tmz]

It's not up to you to close the discussion ; you can withdaw if you like .

I do" get it" even without your comments and have read all your "threats"(sic). I'd personally rather not keep discussing it with you since there is apparently nothing else you can offer and perseveration does little to develop information and ideas.. If you choose you can certainly can stop repeating yourself and offering opinions as facts and rules along with offering explainations rife with self contradiction,such as citing achemical reaction that shows CO2 and alkainity consumption and then stating the reaction produces CO2 and has no effect on alkalinity or asserting you can measure exactly how much a tank needs in terms of sulfur vs nitrate and then arguing you can't have too much sulfur or this:

Sulfur amount will NOT!!! vary based on the level of nitrate entering the reactor.
It must be based on the quantity(level x volume) of nitrate entering the reactor daily.

HUH ????

I simply disagree with your rules and most of your opinions and viewsd of the biology and chemistry involved and hope folks will consider how things work as they fine tune their own approaches and question all opinions rigorously along the way.

IMO,there is no need for excessive sulfur and providing it does effect the chemistry of the tank.

The amount of nitrate entering the reactor is governed by the amount in the tank at a given time and the amount of flow to the reactor. Where else would it come from?
Starting at 1% of water volume if nitrate is high might be ok ; though less might be better and has worked for me and others who have posted their numerous experiences earlier in this thread.
The amount of sulfur needed depends on the amount of nitrate and the exhaustion of oxygen to allow anaerobic nitrate reduction by the sulfur bacteria.

The amount of nitrate in both the tank and the reactor will diminish as the nitrate is consumed at start up when the tank has built up high nitrate beyond the amounts produced by daily nutrient input . This lower level of nitrate often requires upward adjustments to the flow and a lessor sulfur amount to minimize unnecessary aerobic activity ,sulfate production and alkalinity depletion and to minimize the risk of hydrogen sulfide production when flow is not high enough to keep up with bacteria feasting on the sulfur.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

It's not up to you to close the discussion ; you can withdaw if you like .

I do" get it" even without your comments and have read all your "threats"(sic). I'd personally rather not keep discussing it with you since there is apparently nothing else you can offer and perseveration does little to develop information and ideas.. If you choose you can certainly can stop repeating yourself and offering opinions as facts and rules along with offering explainations rife with self contradiction,such as citing achemical reaction that shows CO2 and alkainity consumption and then stating the reaction produces CO2 and has no effect on alkalinity or asserting you can measure exactly how much a tank needs in terms of sulfur vs nitrate and then arguing you can't have too much sulfur or this:

Sulfur amount will NOT!!! vary based on the level of nitrate entering the reactor.
It must be based on the quantity(level x volume) of nitrate entering the reactor daily.

HUH ????

I simply disagree with your rules and most of your opinions and viewsd of the biology and chemistry involved and hope folks will consider how things work as they fine tune their own approaches and question all opinions rigorously along the way.

IMO,there is no need for excessive sulfur and providing it does effect the chemistry of the tank.

The amount of nitrate entering the reactor is governed by the amount in the tank at a given time and the amount of flow to the reactor. Where else would it come from?
Starting at 1% of water volume if nitrate is high might be ok ; though less might be better and has worked for me and others who have posted their numerous experiences earlier in this thread.
The amount of sulfur needed depends on the amount of nitrate and the exhaustion of oxygen to allow anaerobic nitrate reduction by the sulfur bacteria.

The amount of nitrate in both the tank and the reactor will diminish as the nitrate is consumed at start up when the tank has built up high nitrate beyond the amounts produced by daily nutrient input . This lower level of nitrate often requires upward adjustments to the flow and a lessor sulfur amount to minimize unnecessary aerobic activity ,sulfate production and alkalinity depletion and to minimize the risk of hydrogen sulfide production when flow is not high enough to keep up with bacteria feasting on the sulfur.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

It's not up to you to close the discussion ; you can withdaw if you like .

I do" get it" even without your comments and have read all your "threats"(sic). I'd personally rather not keep discussing it with you since there is apparently nothing else you can offer and perseveration does little to develop information and ideas.. If you choose you can certainly can stop repeating yourself and offering opinions as facts and rules along with offering explainations rife with self contradiction,such as citing achemical reaction that shows CO2 and alkainity consumption and then stating the reaction produces CO2 and has no effect on alkalinity or asserting you can measure exactly how much a tank needs in terms of sulfur vs nitrate and then arguing you can't have too much sulfur or this:

Sulfur amount will NOT!!! vary based on the level of nitrate entering the reactor.
It must be based on the quantity(level x volume) of nitrate entering the reactor daily.

HUH ????

I simply disagree with your rules and most of your opinions and viewsd of the biology and chemistry involved and hope folks will consider how things work as they fine tune their own approaches and question all opinions rigorously along the way.

IMO,there is no need for excessive sulfur and providing it does effect the chemistry of the tank.

The amount of nitrate entering the reactor is governed by the amount in the tank at a given time and the amount of flow to the reactor. Where else would it come from?
Starting at 1% of water volume if nitrate is high might be ok ; though less might be better and has worked for me and others who have posted their numerous experiences earlier in this thread.
The amount of sulfur needed depends on the amount of nitrate and the exhaustion of oxygen to allow anaerobic nitrate reduction by the sulfur bacteria.

The amount of nitrate in both the tank and the reactor will diminish as the nitrate is consumed at start up when the tank has built up high nitrate beyond the amounts produced by daily nutrient input . This lower level of nitrate often requires upward adjustments to the flow and a lessor sulfur amount to minimize unnecessary aerobic activity ,sulfate production and alkalinity depletion and to minimize the risk of hydrogen sulfide production when flow is not high enough to keep up with bacteria feasting on the sulfur.

I meant I close the endless discussion with You. You do it your way!

All readers: People who want to build BADESS ( Biological Autotrobe Denitrification on elemental Sulfur System) which will not finally end up in a H2S factory know what to do. Use reactors that are big enough and keep it simple!
A correctly build BADESS is the only system that not only will reduce nitrate but also will control the nitrate level on the desired nitrate level. Nitrate problems will be history. Such a BADESS is safe, reliable, easy manageable and does not need daily attention or dosing. Such a system can NOT be build using a limited amount of sulphur based on the nitrate present in the system.
except when at least 1% is used.
Doubts? Try it out!

Sincerely Yours.

 

[Isayso]

thanks

thanks

Not to bust everybody chops,
But I wanted to thank everyone who participated in this thread, to help others
After all that's what the community is about
Since using the sulfur reactor, I have no problem in my tank, maybe I'm doing it wrong, or doing it right but it's working for me....
Thanks again

 

[tmz]

You are welcome. Mine works well for me too.

 

[tmz]

BADESS is the only system that not only will reduce nitrate but also will control the nitrate level on the desired nitrate level.

No it's not the only way to maintain nitrate at a desired level,IME.

Such a system can NOT be build using a limited amount of sulphur based on the nitrate present in the system.
except when at least 1% is used.

Too absolutist for me many have noted success and run them successfully with less sulfur throughout the thread and less negative effect on alkalinity and sulfate production. For example I reduced and managed mine with 1 gallon of sulfur for the 650 gallon system within a few weeks.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Other ways for controlling the nitrate level in an aquariumsystem

Other ways for controlling the nitrate level in an aquariumsystem

BADESS is the only system that not only will reduce nitrate but also will control the nitrate level on the desired nitrate level.

No it's not the only way to maintain nitrate at a desired level,IME.

.

Sorry to interfere again but this time you made me curious.

Are there other methods available that will remove the same and predictable amount of nitrate every day at different nitrate levels ( for example while reducing the level from 20ppm to 2ppm and keep 2ppm)?

By keeping the desired nitrate level I do not only mean the maximum level, I mean also the nitrate level of choice ( for example between 0.5 ppm or 1ppm or 1 and 2 ppm ) (BADESS works fine at a level 0.5 ppm and can remove a daily nitrate production of 1ppm at that level)

Most methods remove nothing! VODKA, bio-polymers and other feeding methods only cultivate bacteria which take up nitrate which must be removed by an other device before they die or consumed by other organism otherwise all stays in the system. Not predictable at all and certainly not suitable for controlling the desired nitrate level.

Algea scrubbers, Caulerpa, Halimeda and other cultivations must be harvested and the nitrate removal is not predictable and very limited. Not suitable for controlling the nitrate level.
Fungus based? Not predictable! No control.

Tube reactors: very unreliable and unpredictable. Not suitable.

C-reactor removes nitrate and daily nitrate removal can be predicted if correctly dosed. Is very sensitive for flow changes and feeding which makes it practical very difficult to reduce high nitrate levels to a desired level and keep it there. It works fine to keep a low nitrate level low but needs a lot of attention and correct dosing of food.
Unreliable and for this reason unpredictable.

Living stone, deep sand beds. Not predictable, not controllable.

Jaubert? Not predictable. Not controllable.

All the methods mentioned above are able to reduce nitrate ( not the same as reducing the nitrate level in the system) but non is able to give me the control over the rate of nitrate removal as desired.

Did I missed one?
I am really interested in new suitable, reliable and better methods for not only remove or reduce nitrate but also will give me the control over the nitrate level in the aquarium system.

As this threat is in the DIY section and about a sulphur reactor it may be better to open a thread in an other section.

 

[tmz]

Do you have a real question or are you making an argumentative statement?

This thread is about sulfur reactors;it is not my intention to dissuade folks from using them to reduce accumulated nitrate or recruit them to other very effective ways to control nitrate to desired levels . Though, I would note it seems that excessive amounts of sulfur will likely result in keeping a floor on nitrate reduction impossible while matching sulfur amounts to nitrate levels seems more intelligent.

This one is about organic carbon dosing :

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2134105&highlight=organic+carbon+dosing

There are many threads on other methods , some of which you noted. Discussing them all here is ,IMO, beyond the scope of this thread.

One brief sidebar to be responsive seems justifiable.

FWIW, I've dosed vodka and vinegar to my main sytem for over 5 years. Once a maintenance dose is established it's easy to dose the same amount daily which in my case sustains PO4 in the 0.02 to 0.04ppm range and NO3 at 0.2 to 0.05 range which are the ranges I prefer for the variety of corals in my tanks; some like them lower ;some higher..
Increasing or decreasing the dose of organic carbon changes the volume of heterotrophic bacteria and consequently the nutrient levels affected by their aerobic and anearobic activity.
Skimming adequately removes enough bacteria and the nutrients they hold. There is also a good deal of anaerobic activity involved which removes N via N 2. So, yes organic carbon dosing with soluble organics can and does maintain a reasonably precise desired level of NO3 and PO4 in my tanks.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Do you have a real question or are you making an argumentative statement?



This one is about organic carbon dosing :

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2134105&highlight=organic+carbon+dosing

.

No it's not the only way to maintain nitrate at a desired level,IME

You wrote that there where other methods available with which I can maintain the nitrate level I desire. To do that the nitrate removal must be predictable and controllable. As far as I know BADESS is the only nitrate removal method able to do this. So I was curious.

The methods I listed above are NOT able to do what I want and I listed them to exclude them. All methods are able to reduce nitrate but the daily removal is not predictable and/ or to difficult to manage.


Carbon dosing and bio-polymers were already on my list: removes nothing! An other device ( skimmer) must be able to remove the cultivated bacteria to remove some nitrate before the cultivated bacteria die or will be consumed otherwise all stays in the system. Quantity of nitrate removed each day is not predictable and it is NOT possible to control the nitrate at a desired level using this method. Suitable for low daily nitrate removal and able to help keep the level low in nutrient poor aquarium systems with limited feeding.
BADESS makes it possible to build nutrient poor mixed reef aquarium systems where adequate feeding is required.

To keep the desired level, everyday the daily nitrate production has to be removed daily.

Using BADESS I can decide how much nitrate BADESS will remove daily, the daily nitrate removal is predictable and this makes it possible to control the nitrate level at the level I want . For Years!

Thank You.

 

[tmz]

Carbon dosing and bio-polymers were already on my list: removes nothing! An other device ( skimmer) must be able to remove the cultivated bacteria to remove some nitrate before the cultivated bacteria die or will be consumed otherwise all stays in the system. Quantity of nitrate removed each day is not predictable and it is NOT possible to control the nitrate at a desired level using this method. Suitable for low daily nitrate removal and able to help keep the level low in nutrient poor aquarium systems with limited feeding




That's just untrue;read up on inorganic carbon dosing if you are truly interested. The link provided provides plenty of information and cross links.

Ignoring anything including some of your own statements that don't go along with your rules seems to result in a lot of opinions misrepresented as facts which need to be challenged .

Obviously, the process for bacteria involved when dosing organic carbon in terms of removing phosphate and nitrate via aerobic and anaerobic activity and ammonia reduction is misrepresented and inaccurate more so perhaps than the opinions on sulfur bacteria posted as facts earlier.

Ruling out organic carbon dosing along all the other methods outside of excessive sulfur use in a sulfur reactor is about what I expected . Many of us like to run our own tanks and seek ways to improve across a broader spectrum of useful approaches and to understand better how things actually work.

Again this thread is about using sulfur denitrators which can do a good job in reducing and managing nitrate when sulfur amounts and flow relate to the amount of nitrate at given points in time. The thread is not about all the other effective methods to manage nitrogen. There are plenty of less biased discussions on all of them elsewhere, including the link provided earlier on organic carbon dosing.

 

[CHSUB]

I am closing this discussion. There is nothing to add any more. I only repeat myself.
For people who want to build a workable and easy manageable sulphur based nitrate removal system ( BADESS) that not only reduces nitrate but also controls it I hope they will know what to do. If not, they may always contact me. All information is also available on the Makazi Baharini wikki. The wiki is in Dutch but we are translating the BADESS chapter to English. When this translation is finished we will make the BADESS chapter accessible all rights reserved to the writer which is not me. I only help to translate and rewrite. We hope to finish this within a few months. I will notice when the translation is finished.
BADESS makes it possible to build a natural looking mixed reef aquarium which can be fed normally.
BADESS can be build very cheap. All you need is a plastic container that can be closed air tight and a small pump.

Happy reefing with BADESS!

You are welcome. Mine works well for me too.

I have enjoyed and benefited from your back and forth over the past year plus. Having used a sulfur denitrator for close to two years I can give some good feedback. Most importantly is the size and amount of sulfur used. Imo, the 1% rule is valid and an excellent starting point. I found my S denitrator almost worthless when using less sulfur, and it was not until I approached 1% sulfur that the S denitrator began processing enough water. It seems logical that using less sulfur would work for lower no3 levels in the DT, however I found that even 1% sulfur only maintained my no3 levels. Water changes lowered NO3 and the S denitrator maintains NO3. I can't image how a "œsmall" S denitrator would have any effect on NO3 levels in a DT. They are just not that effective.

 

[tmz]

Thanks for the feedback. My experience has been different. If that works for you I wouldn't change it.

Though it's worth considering , the sulfur bacteria identified by Belgian earlier on correctly or incorrectly as Thio bacillus are facultative.They use the NO3 for oxygen when free O is unavailble. Thus , anaerobic reduction of NO3 is less when less NO3 vs free O is available but sulfur is still used for energy as they use the free O . So, more sulfur in higher flow carrying in more oxygen would not equate to more NO3 reduction via anaerobic activity but would result in more sulfate production and alkalinity use. In other words the same amount of sulfur would reduce less nitrate when less nitrate was available relative to free oxygen.

On the other hand , it could be that higher flow over more sulfur is needed in some setups to carry enough tank water through to carry enough nitrate in. In such cases the alk use and sulfate production though higher might be unavoidable since more bacterial activity would be needed to use the free O and get to anaerobic activity.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Sulphate?

Sulphate?

In a normal fed aquarium our BADESS will compensate for any effects on PH and KH caused by BADESS itself even at nitrate levels of 0.5ppm and high flow of 5l/h/lS. Sulphate production in the sulphur reactor is a fact. Why it has no noticeable effect on the aquarium system after years of operation without a waterchange? Michel Hignette says it is probably held back in the calcium reactors and removed when they are cleaned.
To know more one has to know what is going one in the calcium reactors while in anaerobic and /or anoxic conditions fed by, we suppose, nitrate free water..
The SANI system uses sulphate from seawater to clean the waste waters of Hong Kong.
Tsang, Wai Lik. “Performance of Sulfate Reduction, Autotrophic Denitrification, and Nitrification Integrated Process (SANI Process) for Saline Sewage Treatment”, 2007.
Lau, G. Ngai. “Study on the Role of Sulfate Reduction and Autotrophic Denitrification to Achieve Excess Sludge Minimization for Hong Kong Sewage”, 2005.

Must we know to operate BADESS? Of course not.
As sulphate production is not noticeable in the aquarium system, why bother?
Taking it to account? The choice of the salt mix will have far more influence on the content of sulphate in the aquarium system.

 

[CHSUB]

Thanks for the feedback. My experience has been different. If that works for you I wouldn't change it.

Though it's worth considering , the sulfur bacteria identified by Belgian earlier on correctly or incorrectly as Thio bacillus are facultative.They use the NO3 for oxygen when free O is unavailble. Thus , anaerobic reduction of NO3 is less when less NO3 vs free O is available but sulfur is still used for energy as they use the free O . So, more sulfur in higher flow carrying in more oxygen would not equate to more NO3 reduction via anaerobic activity but would result in more sulfate production and alkalinity use. In other words the same amount of sulfur would reduce less nitrate when less nitrate was available relative to free oxygen.

On the other hand , it could be that higher flow over more sulfur is needed in some setups to carry enough tank water through to carry enough nitrate in. In such cases the alk use and sulfate production though higher might be unavoidable since more bacterial activity would be needed to use the free O and get to anaerobic activity.

interesting, making the filter a sulfur reactor when free o2 is available. However, in my unique setup this would not be the case. I have 40 feet of tube in a coil before the reactor to help reduce free o2 and more importantly the flow through the reactor is controlled by an ORP controller that only allows water to be processed when the conditions are optimal for no3 reduction, namely no free o2. Despite these optimizing measures, I still found it necessary to follow the 1% rule when using a S denitrator. Will a smaller reactor work? Yes, but IME, it will not have the desired effect on the DT no3 level.

 

[Greg 45]

The orp in my reactor is -245
Is there a magical orp number the reactor should run at ?

 

[CHSUB]

The orp in my reactor is -245
Is there a magical orp number the reactor should run at ?

imo, no. my goal is to process as much dt water as possible, while getting 0.00 no3 effluent. mine goes between -265 and -199.

 

[Greg 45]

effluent is at zero / didn't know if the orp number was important
thank you

 

[Belgian Anthias]

interesting, making the filter a sulfur reactor when free o2 is available. However, in my unique setup this would not be the case. I have 40 feet of tube in a coil before the reactor to help reduce free o2 and more importantly the flow through the reactor is controlled by an ORP controller that only allows water to be processed when the conditions are optimal for no3 reduction, namely no free o2. Despite these optimizing measures, I still found it necessary to follow the 1% rule when using a S denitrator. Will a smaller reactor work? Yes, but IME, it will not have the desired effect on the DT no3 level.

How do you anticipate when the nitrate level in the system increases? ( daily nitrate production increases) I assume that the flow has to stay within a narrow range due to the tube ?

A 1% reactor should work fine without the tube in front this way making the removal rate easy controllable with the flow ( more or less nitrate entered, more or less oxygen entered, more or less anaerobe space space available)
We have tried out some methods for depleting the oxygen in the influent water of the sulfur reactor . It worked fine for us with a big moving bed BIO sand reactor in front of the sulphur reactor but we lost the control over the rate of nitrate removal. No noticeable differences in water quality could be determined by us . We used it only for a short time because for us it had more drawbacks than advantages.
When enough sulphur is used, and 1 % will be enough in most cases, both processes will be accomplished within the same reactor and with a more flexible flow control as a result making it a lot more easy to manage the rate of nitrate removal.

Our BADESS has 2% calcium/ calcium carbonate media in total after the 1% sulphur reactor. All reactors are slow moving bed reactors.