DIY Sulfur Denitrator

[rclendan]

Nice looking set up. I agree a small amount of sulfur works fine in recirculating type denitrators. I feed pretty heavy, and I don't have any Nitrate issues with a small ( 2 liter S, 1 liter aragonite ) denitrator. All the above discussed experimentation is more for my own curiosity because T. Denitrificans is such an interesting species.

 

[CHSUB]

imo, the 1% rule is a starting point only...smaller may work fine or larger might be needed also, but one needs to start somewhere. i see examples where people use tiny reactors and get a drop a second on 200 gallon plus systems and wonder why their no3 won't go down from 50 ppm?

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Reducing Nitrate

Reducing Nitrate

Reducing nitrate: To reduce nitrate the volume of the reactor thus not matter. As long as the nitrate level of the outflow of the reactor is lower as the nitrate level in the inflow, the reactor is reducing nitrate. A sulfur denitrator will still reduce nitrate at a flow of 10 x the volume of the reactor. Ever tried this with a carbon based anaerobe reactor?
Reducing the nitrate level of the system: To reduce the nitrate level in the system water the reactor must be able to remove daily more than the daily nitrate production in the system. The volume of the reactor needed to reduce the nitrate level will depend of the nitrate level in the system. When the nitrate level of the system water decreases the volume of the reactor needed must increase to be able to deplete the increased amount of oxygen due to the increased flow needed to remove the same daily quantity of nitrate. Each time the nitrate level in the system water changes the reactor volume and the flow true the reactor has to change to be able to remove the same quantity of nitrate daily. The quantity of sulfur needed will stay the same because the same quantity of nitrate has to be removed daily. The flow needed to remove the same nitrate production daily at a level of 1 ppm will be 40 x higher as when the level was 40ppm. Are we going to change the volume of the reactor each time the nitrate level in the system changes?
The volume of the reactor needed to start with will be the volume we need to remove daily the daily nitrate production at the nitrate level we want to achieve. The desired nitrate level! The reactor must be big enough to reach the desired level. When for example the desired level is 1ppm the reactor must be twice as big as when this level was intended to be 2ppm because we need double the flow for making it possible for the reactor to remove the same quantity of nitrate daily. The quantity of sulfur needed stays the same!
We fill up the reactor with sulfur as media also for depletion of the oxygen because we know that the effect on the system of the quantity of sulfur used is neglectable. The most important reason is that in a moving bed microbiotic circumstances changes every moment and on a sulfur particle all reactions can take place when the circumstances are favorable. On a sand particle this is not possible. That is why we do not mix the sulphur needed with other media.There is no practical reason to do it otherwise.
Controlling the nitrate level: for controlling the nitrate level the reactor must be able to remove the daily nitrate production daily at the nitrate level present in the system and must be able to follow the nitrate production of a growing system. Animals grow and multiply. To be able to grow with the system the reactor must be twice as big as needed at first use to be able to double the flow at any time for easy management.

How big? Big enough! Using a to small reactor may induce mismanagement with a failing reactor as a result or worse, a perfume factory!

A 1% reactor will work satisfactory for controlling a desired level of 1ppm or less, even at a daily nitrate production of 1ppm.
For controlling a level of 0.3 ppm at a daily production of 0.5ppm a reactor of +- 2% is needed. The total system volume has to pass the reactor twice a day. Space and time is needed to deplete the huge amount of oxygen.

The advice is to use twice the volume for the calcium-reactors as used for the sulfur reactors.
Operated at a nitrate level of +- 1ppm and a daily nitrate production of +- 0.5 ppm a BADESS adds calcium and compensates for alkalinity when calcium-carbonate is added to the calcium-reactors. For a fish only tank these quantities may be reduced because overproduction of calcium may occur.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

I'm definitely with you on this one Tom.

I have a 450 that I originally based the sulfur amount on the .006 per gallon calculation. Since I introduced it in late Nov '14, and since my nitrates hit hobby level testing values of 0, I have been reducing the amount of sulfur in my reactor. I figure, less food source, the less sulfur needed. Anyway, I have an AquaC RX-1 modded to be my reactor and it has been working wonderfully on my 450 mixed reef.

Your system will probably do well without a sulfur denitrator.
I do not know the flow true your reactor but if the inflow is near 0 even at a very high flow this reactor will not remove much if any at all. A 0.006 reactor ( 0.6%) is able to do the job in most cases. Any size of reactor can reduce nitrate but only the quantity that is going in.
A sulfur denitrator is intended to be used in systems where nitrate is produced daily. it needs an adequate amount of nitrate to work . Can you measure the flow correctly and multiply it by the nitrate level of the system ( if the outflow is 0 nitrate). I am curious to know how much this reactor is removing.
When no nitrate or very little nitrate is reduced ph will not decent enough to dissolve any calcium.
As the quantity of sulfur is reduced more(why?) i can not see the benefit of keeping this reactor in line. The lower the nitrate level, the bigger the reactor should be to deplete the oxygen and to be able to remove any nitrate . Very high flow is needed to enter an adequate amount of nitrate to keep the working force alive and well.
For easy management it is advised that when a sulfur denitrator is used as a part of the system the reactor is operated at a nitrate level of +-0.5ppm or higher to assure constant feeding of the working force and calcium production.

 

[CHSUB]

Your system will probably do well without a sulfur denitrator.
I do not know the flow true your reactor but if the inflow is near 0 even at a very high flow this reactor will not remove much if any at all. A 0.006 reactor ( 0.6%) is able to do the job in most cases. Any size of reactor can reduce nitrate but only the quantity that is going in.
A sulfur denitrator is intended to be used in systems where nitrate is produced daily. it needs an adequate amount of nitrate to work . Can you measure the flow correctly and multiply it by the nitrate level of the system ( if the outflow is 0 nitrate). I am curious to know how much this reactor is removing.
When no nitrate or very little nitrate is reduced ph will not decent enough to dissolve any calcium.
As the quantity of sulfur is reduced more(why?) i can not see the benefit of keeping this reactor in line. The lower the nitrate level, the bigger the reactor should be to deplete the oxygen and to be able to remove any nitrate . Very high flow is needed to enter an adequate amount of nitrate to keep the working force alive and well.
For easy management it is advised that when a sulfur denitrator is used as a part of the system the reactor is operated at a nitrate level of +-0.5ppm or higher to assure constant feeding of the working force and calcium production.

interesting and i agree with your logic!!!!

 

[1fishkeeper]

Yahoo I got mine built and it's starting to cycle. I just have a small drip where the MJ body and the removable part connects. Maybe it will plug up with salt creep. Right now my NO3 is running around the 25ppm in my display.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Reducing the nitrate level of the system: To reduce the nitrate level in the system water the reactor must be able to remove daily more than the daily nitrate production in the system. The volume of the reactor needed to reduce the nitrate level will depend of the nitrate level in the system.

And of course the daily to remove quantity of nitrate.

When the nitrate level of the system water decreases the volume of the reactor needed must increase to be able to deplete the increased amount of oxygen due to the increased flow needed to remove the same daily quantity of nitrate. Each time the nitrate level in the system water changes the reactor volume and the flow true the reactor has to change to be able to remove the same quantity of nitrate daily. The quantity of sulfur needed will stay the same because the same quantity of nitrate has to be removed daily. The flow needed to remove the same nitrate production daily at a level of 1 ppm will be 40 x higher as when the level was 40ppm. Are we going to change the volume of the reactor each time the nitrate level in the system changes?
The volume of the reactor needed to start with will be the volume we need to remove daily the daily nitrate production at the nitrate level we want to achieve. The desired nitrate level! The reactor must be big enough to reach the desired level. When for example the desired level is 1ppm the reactor must be twice as big as when this level was intended to be 2ppm because we need double the flow for making it possible for the reactor to remove the same quantity of nitrate daily. The quantity of sulfur needed stays the same!
We fill up the reactor with sulfur as media also for depletion of the oxygen because we know that the effect on the system of the quantity of sulfur used is neglectable. The most important reason is that in a moving bed microbiotic circumstances changes every moment and on a sulfur particle all reactions can take place when the circumstances are favorable. On a sand particle this is not possible. That is why we do not mix the sulphur needed with other media.There is no practical reason to do it otherwise.
.

 

[tmz]

I disagree with almost all of that( 1543, 1544 and 1547 particulary that you need more sulfur for less nitrate. The opposite is true ,ime. It's been argued over and over for pages pages earlier on in this thread.

I would speculate that adding organic carbon as CHSUB and others do to a sulfur reactor directly or by way of dosing an aqaurium wherein the miscible organic carbon will move into the reactor might throw everything off though in that the sulfur might simply serve as a surface area for heterotrophic bacteria in which case more surface area may be a plus but it needn't be sulfur. The heterotrophs may dominate the sulfur reducing bacteria and may with insufficient oxygen and/or nitrate available set the stage fro sulfate reduction for the oxygen from the SO4 along with the by products of this activity including toxic , hydrogen sulfide. Can organic carbon dosing and the use of a sulfur reactor work together? I don't know but I continue to be interested in combinations folks are trying.
Calcium doesn't dissolve ,btw.Did you mean calcium carbonate?

 

[Belgian Anthias]

I disagree with almost all of that( 1543, 1544 and 1547 particulary that you need more sulfur for less nitrate. The opposite is true ,ime. It's been argued over and over for pages pages earlier on in this thread.

I would speculate that adding organic carbon as CHSUB and others do to a sulfur reactor directly or by way of dosing an aqaurium wherein the miscible organic carbon will move into the reactor might throw everything off though in that the sulfur might simply serve as a surface area for heterotrophic bacteria in which case more surface area may be a plus but it needn't be sulfur. The heterotrophs may dominate the sulfur reducing bacteria and may with insufficient oxygen and/or nitrate available set the stage fro sulfate reduction for the oxygen from the SO4 along with the by products of this activity including toxic , hydrogen sulfide. Can organic carbon dosing and the use of a sulfur reactor work together? I don't know but I continue to be interested in combinations folks are trying.
Calcium doesn't dissolve ,btw.Did you mean calcium carbonate?

You still do not get it? As I can understand you are saying that in your point of view the volume of the reactor may become less when the nitrate level in the system descends. Can you please explain how you will continue to remove the same quantity of nitrate daily with less sulfur when the incoming water contains less nitrate?

What will be the benefit of changing a good working reliable maintenance free system into a carbon dependable system?
A moving bed sulfur denitrator that is big enough can not turn into a H2S factory unless it is forced to by severe mismanagement! Dosing carbon in a sulfur denitrator is part of this mismanagement in my point of view. Carbon dosed anaerobe reactors are very difficult to manage!
And why combine elemental sulfur with carbon dosing. There is enough sulfur present in the aquarium water. The SANI system uses the available sulphate in seawater to clean the waste waters of Hongkong.

 

[tmz]

I do get it. Just don't see any benefit of hearing you say the same thing over and over . You've filled pages with your opinions and mistatements and convoluted views of bacterial reactions and chemistry,misrepresentation of my statements and those of others while shifitng your own and on and on. Enough. There are pages of this type of gibberish already:


continue to remove the same quantity of nitrate daily ........ when the incoming water contains less nitrate...

that's nonsensical and doesn't warrant a response. So is this:




Your opinion is more sulfur and more sulfur not much else ; I disagree. The needed sulfur volume relates to the volume of nitrate in the water.

Several folks have discussed this with an open mind and thoroughly starting back at post 1249 but any rational fact based discussion is dismissed or misrepresented or replaced by your opinions and musings presented as absolute fact. Your posts are full of bad stuff about the chemistry and bacterial activity and inconsistent in most respects . Going over it all again is pointless and displaces any potential learning from more pithy inquiries.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

I do get it. Just don't see any benefit of hearing you say the same thing over and over . You've filled pages with your opinions and mistatements and convoluted views of bacterial reactions and chemistry,misrepresentation of my statements and those of others while shifitng your own and on and on. Enough. There are pages of this type of gibberish already:


continue to remove the same quantity of nitrate daily ........ when the incoming water contains less nitrate...

that's nonsensical and doesn't warrant a response. So is this:




Your opinion is more sulfur and more sulfur not much else ; I disagree. The needed sulfur volume relates to the volume of nitrate in the water.

Several folks have discussed this with an open mind and thoroughly starting back at post 1249 but any rational fact based discussion is dismissed or misrepresented or replaced by your opinions and musings presented as absolute fact. Your posts are full of bad stuff about the chemistry and bacterial activity and inconsistent in most respects . Going over it all again is pointless and displaces any potential learning from more pithy inquiries.

I just want to know how you will remove the same quantity of nitrate daily with less sulfur when the nitrate level in the system descends because that is your statement . For me it is a logic concept that the minimal quantity of sulfur needed is based on the daily to remove quantity of nitrate which has nothing to see with the nitrate level in the system. As in your eyes it is a non essential question, I can except a non essential answer. What is the benefit of all knowledge if one can or will not accept logic.
Question: System volume = 1000l. Daily nitrate production is 1ppm = 1000mg daily. Nitrate level in the system is 40ppm. To make it possible for the reactor to remove the daily production a volume 25 liter of water has to pas the reactor daily. At a level of 10 ppm a volume of 100 liter of water has to pass the reactor to remove the nitrate production daily. At a nitrate level of 1ppm a volume of 1000l has to pass the reactor daily to remove the same daily production of 1ppm.
At your point of view the quantity of sulphur is related to the nitrate level so there will be less sulphur needed in the reactor at 1ppm as initially necessary at 40ppm. That is what you are saying, correct?
But there is still 1000mg nitrate to remove daily to keep the level at 1ppm and 1000l of water to threat instead of 25 litre to be able to continue to remove the daily production daily.
When the level of nitrate descends more water, more flow, has to pass the reactor to make it possible for the reactor to remove the same quantity of nitrate daily. More time and place is needed to deplete the increased quantity of oxygen so the reactor must be big enough!
I am sorry that I have to repeat the same over and over but your previous answers on my questions proves, from my point of view, the necessity of my doings.
A lot of to small sulfur reactors are used which may result in problems because they are easily mismanaged. When reactors are used that are big enough problems will occur only when provoked by the user due to severe mismanagement. What you are telling leads to mismanagement!
The only reason acceptable for decreasing the reactors volume and/or sulfur quantity is when the daily production decreases drastically or that the reactor was well over-sized to begin with. In all cases, one still has to know how big it should be and that is "Big enough!"

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Essential or not?

Essential or not?

continue to remove the same quantity of nitrate daily ........ when the incoming water contains less nitrate...

that's nonsensical and doesn't warrant a response. So is this:

What is called non essential is the most important off all for controlling the nitrate level of the system. Removing daily the daily nitrate production is essential for keeping the desired level steady.
For having a good working sulfur-denitrator we try to keep the level between 0.5 and 1ppm. At a level of near 0 the reactor can not remove nitrate or very little and the reduction army will starve. So it is essential for having control over the daily removed quantity of nitrate. A reactor that is big enough is self-regulating. Once the balance is found on the desired level by correcting the flow it will keep that level relatively stable except when big changes in the daily productions occurs. But even then the reactor will correct and stabilize the level after a few days without any interference of man kind. Only when the big change is permanent, flow corrections have to be made.
if the daily production is not more than 0.5 ppm a 1% reactor can maintain and control a level of 0.5ppm easily.

 

[tmz]

No my adivce is not for mismanagement; excessive sulfur has consequences; not all are positive; alk depletion, slufate production and likely some effects on metals in the system.
Your rhetorical question has been asked and answered many times over already. Further perseverative argument for more and more sulfur and attacks on others,as wrong thinking, severe mismanagement advocates, illogical etc. who raise interesting questions and alternatives are discouraged by it and snowed under a mound of verbage and sulfur beads.

For me it is a logic concept that the minimal quantity of sulfur needed is based on the daily to remove quantity of nitrate which has nothing to see with the nitrate level in the system.

Seems completely void of logic to me to use more sulfur for less nitrate . The daily amount of nitrate you need to remove is the amount in the system at any given time.

 

[tmz]

No my adivce is not for mismanagement; excessive sulfur has consequences; not all are positive; alk depletion, slufate production and likely some effects on metals in the system.
Your rhetorical question has been asked and answered many times over already. Further perseverative argument for more and more sulfur and attacks on others,as wrong thinking, severe mismanagement advocates, illogical etc. who raise interesting questions and alternatives are discouraged by it and snowed under a mound of verbage and sulfur beads.

For me it is a logic concept that the minimal quantity of sulfur needed is based on the daily to remove quantity of nitrate which has nothing to see with the nitrate level in the system.

Seems completely void of logic to me to use more sulfur for less nitrate . The daily amount of nitrate you need to remove is the amount in the system at any given time.

I know you will write pages in response to theis simple idea but I won't respond except to correct any more mistatements of fact or mistatements of my positions .

 

[tmz]

At a level of near 0 the reactor can not remove nitrate or very little and the reduction army will starve.

Sounds like more opinion void of fact. If you mean T, nitrifcans will perish without nitrate what evidence do you have? They are facultative and many chemolithotrophs do survive without nitrate.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

How big is big enough?

How big is big enough?

For those who want to start using a sulfur denitrator without the risk of beïng confronted with its limitations they just have to use a reactor that is big enough.
How much is big enough?
For a new system do not hesitate to install a 1% reactor. For an existing system try to know your daily nitrate build up before use! Decide at which nitrate level you desire the system should operate. Between 0.5ppm and 1ppm works fine.
Guideline: If the total system volume has to pass the reactor once a day to remove the daily nitrate production daily at the desired nitrate level, use a 1% reactor. If only half the system volume has to pass the reactor daily, a 0.5% reactor will do. if the total system volume has to pass the reactor twice daily a 2% reactor is needed. This formula is an easy way for calculating the volume of the reactor needed for long term use and easy management. Also for reducing high nitrate levels to the desired level.
It is an easy to calculate guideline but one that results in a good working and reliable sulfur-denitrator.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

No my adivce is not for mismanagement; excessive sulfur has consequences; not all are positive; alk depletion, slufate production and likely some effects on metals in the system.
Your rhetorical question has been asked and answered many times over already. Further perseverative argument for more and more sulfur and attacks on others,as wrong thinking, severe mismanagement advocates, illogical etc. who raise interesting questions and alternatives are discouraged by it and snowed under a mound of verbage and sulfur beads.

For me it is a logic concept that the minimal quantity of sulfur needed is based on the daily to remove quantity of nitrate which has nothing to see with the nitrate level in the system.

Seems completely void of logic to me to use more sulfur for less nitrate . The daily amount of nitrate you need to remove is the amount in the system at any given time.

Did you have not created a perfume factory in the past? And what did you learn about it? Or aim I wrong? Your advice to reduce the nitrate in the reactor when the level in the system is descended to a lower level increases the risk for mismanagement considerably!
You do not want to answer an easy question because it can not be answered following your advice. Although the answer is very simple!
Some learn of there mistakes, others are consisting till they have no answer any more!

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Seems completely void of logic to me to use more sulfur for less nitrate . The daily amount of nitrate you need to remove is the amount in the system at any given time.

Has someone tried this out? And how can this be accomplished?

At a nitrate level of 40 ppm or at 1ppm, in the same system, the same quantity of nitrate will be produced daily. To keep the level at 1ppm, which is the level at the given time, how much nitrate must be removed? How much nitrate has the reactor to remove when the level, at the given time of start up, was 40ppm? It seems to me very logic to remove the daily nitrate production. To decrease the level a little bit more.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Makazi Baharini

Makazi Baharini

Instead of repeating myself I will spend some time in translating the BADESS section ( BADESS: Biological Autotrophic Denitrification with Elemental Sulphur System.) of the Makazi Baharini wiki where all information can be found concerning de-nitration by using elemental sulfur. The wiki is written in Dutch but we have started translating the BADESS section in English. The wiki is normally only accessible for members but we will open the BADESS section in English for everybody " read only, all rights reserved" as soon as translations are finished. If the guidelines are followed BADESS can close the nitrogen cycle of a closed aquaculture system and nitrate will not be an issue any more.
BADESS opens a door to an other way of reef-keeping by controlling low nitrate levels in a nutrient rich environment.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

No my adivce is not for mismanagement; excessive sulfur has consequences; not all are positive; alk depletion, slufate production and likely some effects on metals in the system.

No effects have been noticed after many years of use even in systems where the water was not changed over more than a year! When a BADESS is used at a nitrate level of +-1ppm and at normal feeding, BADESS will add calcium and compensate for alkalinity. Sulphate ? Metals? What brand of salt mix do you use? Are you also going to remove some of the huge amount of sulfur compounds already present in seawater? Some investigators claim that sulphate is held back in the calciumreactors. What happens in these reactors filled with calcium- and calcium carbonate compounds, fed by anaerobe water, low ph, no nitrate and high N?

Your rhetorical question has been asked and answered many times over already.

Well, I am still waiting.

Further perseverative argument for more and more sulfur and attacks on others,as wrong thinking, severe mismanagement advocates, illogical etc. who raise interesting questions and alternatives are discouraged by it and snowed under a mound of verbage and sulfur beads.

What is wrong by telling what is wrong? Attacks on others? Do you feel yourself attacked by me? Why? I had no idea. Would it be better to leave you in your knowledge?

[.

I am propagating the use of BADESS.( BADESS: Biological Autotrophic Denitrification with Elemental Sulphur System.) I give answers when asked and explain why. Advice is founded. BADESS is a very reliable system, very easy to manage and very little maintenance is needed but not when some advices are followed I find on a lot of forums and threads. Even guidelines from some manufacturers of reactors will not result in an easy to manage and reliable system. A sulfur de-nitrator must be managed differently as a carbon dosed anaerobe reactor should be. That is when you want it to do more than only reduce some nitrate. Any volume of reactor can reduce nitrate but only a reactor that is big enough can control the nitrate level in the system on the level desired. Must one be a chemist or does one have to know which is responsible for what,. It may help but it is not necessary to manage a BADESS. Being able to make simple calculations will do. Everyone can manage a BADESS.