do we over-acclimate?

[Sk8r]

I'm suspicious that quite a lot of otherwise healthy fish have been killed, particularly by new hobbyists, by over-acclimation, ie, left too long in the bag, ph change, etc, during the slow drip method.

My thinking is that if the hobby recommended matching salinity foremost, to a tolerance of .001, using a refractometer, and then putting the fish straightway into the quarantine tank, the instant there's a salinity match---(ie, if they come in at a matching salinity, just put them straight from the bag to the qt tank)---there would be fewer fatalities. Even a heat difference is not that big a shock, compared to the salinity problem.

If the hobby 'officially' encouraged a qt setup matching the salinity of the lfs or usual online dealer, then salinity can be adjusted over the next days by topoff.

I'd be interested in the wisdom of others on this point.

 

[JHemdal]

Sk8r,

This is a huge problem - people have taken it to the extreme and have begun drip-acclimating for hours - if 30 minutes is good, then six hours must be better, right?

For fish, only a rise in salinity needs to be adapted to carefully - fish can handle a drop in salinity much better than a rise. For long shipments, the pH / ammonia relationship must be dealt with. Decapods don't like pH changes and Echinoderms cannot tolerate salinity changes either way very well....

Here is an excerpt from an article I wrote for the 12/08 issue of Advanced Aquarist Online Magazine:

"Think about this - you have been outside without a coat, you are hypothermic, you are then given the choice of going inside and sitting by a space heater or moving into the garage to warm up just a little, and then an hour later, go into the house - your choice is? It is the same with fish and inverts - any temperature acclimation times of more than 15 minutes are useless. Temperature shock is a much rarer thing than you might think - many more fish die due to low dissolved oxygen or high ammonia while being acclimated too long for temperature (Hemdal 2006). Perhaps worry about photo-shock, pH change and specific gravity increases, but don't go overboard. Ultimately, ask yourself; what is more stressful to a fish - acclimating them in a bare Styrofoam box or bucket for five hours, or having the water parameters abruptly change, but then being able to hole up undercover in a dark cave inside a good quality aquarium to recuperate?"


Jay

 

[Sk8r]

This is the direction I am thinking also. The community that most needs this advice, if accurate, is the newbie forum, where I frequently post, but I am flying this past other experienced reefers to try to turn up potential problems before handing it out for advice in there. I have tested this with fish. I have had zero problems. I would think it would apply to any fish, maybe even *particularly* with larger fish. I would say that inverts, more tolerant of bad water than of salinity change, might do with a little drip adjustment, to take care of any parameters that I am wrong-headed about, but with fish, I just can't see that it would do more harm than what we are encouraging newbies to do.

 

[HighlandReefer]

I recently posted a thread in the Chemistry forum on this subject and all posters pretty much agreed with the above statements:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1568325&highlight=bag+fish

 

[Sk8r]

Interesting. Thank you for that link.

 

[chimmike]

to be honest, I'm guilty lately of not acclimating except maybe for temperature.

The last 10 or so corals I've added, and 3 fish, I've added without drip acclimation, and most of them weren't even temp acclimated.

My theory is that the fish/coral/whatever is already at a high level of stress by being transported in a moving plastic prison, setting him in another container to drip acclimate will stress him out more, then adding him to the aquarium itself will add a measure of stress. No acclimation to me means one less instance where it'd be possible to push the creature over the limit and kill it.

So far, my results have been good. But, my tank params are fairly good. Temp remains constant around 80*, PH around 8.0-8.1, nitrates and nitrites 0.

 

[nismo driver]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14371291#post14371291 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by chimmike
to be honest, I'm guilty lately of not acclimating except maybe for temperature.

The last 10 or so corals I've added, and 3 fish, I've added without drip acclimation, and most of them weren't even temp acclimated.

same here, i feel far less concerned about not acclimating then the fact that i dont properly QT before adding new fish or coral.

 

[LobsterOfJustice]

When I used to drip acclimate, I found that pH would NEVER match - that is, the fish's respiration or the atmosphere changed the pH of the bag faster than the inflow of water.

Now I float the bag for 20 minutes, double the water in the bag with tank water, and then put them in after another 10-20 minutes.

 

[zooty]

Ehhh, I'm either brave or stupid but all of my fish (15+), inverts (???+) and corals (25+) have been temp acclimated then dumped into the tank.

I have lost corals due to insufficient light or flow (n00b) but I have never lost a fish or gotten an ich outbreak. No QT tank either. Right into the display.

Why screw around with all that? Its just more stress on the fish.

 

[Sk8r]

I maintain if you can get that salinity to .001 of a match, you're golden. QT is wisest: you can luck out 20 times, and your 21st fish can take out at least a group of fishes.

 

[PogoMonogo]

Any fish I have ever put in my tank, I pretty much immediately put into the tank upon arriving home. I have only ever lost a fish to jumping out in the last two years. I agree with the whole "over-acclimation" thing.

 

[KingDiamond]

Sometimes it doesn't matter how careful you are. One time I had to relocate a group of six French Grunts (Haemulon flavolineatum) that had been living in a quarentine tank for about two months. I acclimated the fish for temperature and salinity for about 10-15 minutes. Five of the fish swam away fine the other fish turned belly up as soon as I introduced it into the tank. My best guess is that it died of shock, but the other fish lived in that tank for years.

 

[MarcB]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14373762#post14373762 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by KingDiamond
Sometimes it doesn't matter how careful you are. One time I had to relocate a group of six French Grunts (Haemulon flavolineatum) that had been living in a quarentine tank for about two months. I acclimated the fish for temperature and salinity for about 10-15 minutes. Five of the fish swam away fine the other fish turned belly up as soon as I introduced it into the tank. My best guess is that it died of shock, but the other fish lived in that tank for years.

Like the name and Avatar. I met those guys when they toured for that album. Still have the autographed copy.

 

[KingDiamond]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14373975#post14373975 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MarcB
Like the name and Avatar. I met those guys when they toured for that album. Still have the autographed copy.

Caught Andys' pick last time I saw them three years ago.

 

[theman772]

I like the drip but with use of an air stone (battery powered) and a cave for fish in a hang on the tank box also shipped fish(or in a bag for a long time ) will get a shot of amquel

 

[witfull]

the main problem with long term acclimation of fish that have been in a bag for a long duration (ovenight shipping) is that as the O2 anf pH levels fall free ammonia NH3 is converted into ammonium NH4. ammonium is less toxic, but once the bag is opened and the O2 level causes a pH rise free ammonia rises quickly.

check out this article:
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-02/rhf/index.php

 

[Sk8r]

But is it necessary to match more than the salinity? Are there any other parameters to worry about, say for more fragile species?

 

[ngn8dogg]

Ive got all my fish at LFS's and they are all very close and when I get home I don't even acclimate and just throw them in my tank. i pretty much do the same for corals also . I have never lost ANYTHING due to acclimation errors.

 

[tmz]

I think it's much better to match the qt tank salinity and temp to the bag water than to acclimate for long periods of time. Aside from the stress and confinement issue, I am concerned about ammonia toxicity , particularly with shipped fish that have been in the bag for a long period of time.

CO2 and ammonia build up in the bag . The CO2 lowers the ph. Ammonia speciates to less toxic ammonium at lower ph . Open the bag and the CO2 equilibriates with the air and the ammonium becomes the much more toxic free ammonia.

When I order shipped fish , I ask for the sg of the shipping water. Many shippers use low sg water ,in the 1.015 to 1.018 range. Moving a fish from 1.015 to 1.025 or 26 will stress it tremendously and may likely put it into osmotic shock. Ideally you would want to raise the sg .001 or .002 per day. So who can acclimate for a week in ammonia toxic bag water?

In the case of long confinement in the bag, there isn't much you can do about ph since it will spike when the bag is opened. Approximating the sg will get you pretty close on ph.

I also try to estimate what the temperature is going to be and stay on the warmer side of it in the winter and opposite in the summer.

I match the quarantine tank sg to the shipping water or use a lower salinity since a drop in sg even a rapid one wont stress a fish at all.

I float the unopened bag for 15 for 20 minutes for a final temperature acclimation: open the bag, dump most of the bagwaer into a bucket and slide the fish into the quarantine tank quickly.

Now with the fish in qt I can use the next for weeks to move the qt water to match the display tank water.

 

[witfull]

you have to be careful to not "just dump them in" most LFS run their salinity around 1.018. they do this for 2 reasons, ich has a low tolerance to low salinity, and the REAL REASON cost. LFS go through alot of salt water daily. replacing at "true levels is not cost effective. in retail coral tanks salinity is usually kept higher (1.021-2) they are less likely to suffer shock due to the higher salinity and the fact that they are closed up and will slowly acclimate themselves as they take in water to inflate their tissue.

im my opinion, temp is the main worry, them time in transit (and all that entails) then salinity.

when i had my stores, and got trans-ships in, temp acclimate first, salinity check and then "dump into clean fresh SW. (i knew the appox levels my shippers used and would go for a salinity near inbetween).