drummereef's 180g in-wall build

I just water tested the fully functional system yesterday (pics will be up in my build soon! I'm kinda excited) so I can't really comment on how bad the air in the manifold gets.

I think Melev made mention of the air blowing around the media in phosphate/carbon reactors and potentially causing problems with calcium reactors. I will be running both of those off of my manifold so I'm a bit concerned. I know Tswifty runs a media reactor off his manifold, so I was planning on asking him what happens to that every time he turns the return pump back on.
 
Whatever fittings you end up going with, they need to be deep-socket fittings. That means you should have a 1" surface area of glue, rather than 1/2" that is common with sanitary sweeps. You can buy the correct kind from places like Savko - just be clear when you order so you get the right parts.

The isolation system you came up with doesn't work either. Two nights ago, I closed the ball valve before and after my Dart pump (closed loop manifold) so I could remove the strainer and clean it off. I did this, reinstalled the fitting and opened the valves. Air blew through everything for some reason. I was surprised, because I figured it wouldn't even cavitate during that time. It didn't sound different, so I thought all was well. You may even discover some things draining out with the valve closed.

It's strange. I wonder if Pete (psteeleb) has any suggestions.

Love your sketchups. :thumbsup:
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14913524#post14913524 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Taqpol
I just water tested the fully functional system yesterday (pics will be up in my build soon! I'm kinda excited) so I can't really comment on how bad the air in the manifold gets.

I think Melev made mention of the air blowing around the media in phosphate/carbon reactors and potentially causing problems with calcium reactors. I will be running both of those off of my manifold so I'm a bit concerned. I know Tswifty runs a media reactor off his manifold, so I was planning on asking him what happens to that every time he turns the return pump back on.

Post your results here too Taqpol. I'd love to know how your fresh water tests go. I've been watching your build too so I'll stop in there and see how it's going. Thanks for the heads up about Tswifty's setup. I'll hit him up for ideas too. :)
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14913862#post14913862 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by melev
Whatever fittings you end up going with, they need to be deep-socket fittings. That means you should have a 1" surface area of glue, rather than 1/2" that is common with sanitary sweeps. You can buy the correct kind from places like Savko - just be clear when you order so you get the right parts.

The isolation system you came up with doesn't work either. Two nights ago, I closed the ball valve before and after my Dart pump (closed loop manifold) so I could remove the strainer and clean it off. I did this, reinstalled the fitting and opened the valves. Air blew through everything for some reason. I was surprised, because I figured it wouldn't even cavitate during that time. It didn't sound different, so I thought all was well. You may even discover some things draining out with the valve closed.

It's strange. I wonder if Pete (psteeleb) has any suggestions.

Love your sketchups. :thumbsup:


Thanks Marc. Well dangit, I figured there would be some leakage but now I know for sure. :) Back to the drawing board... I remember reading about the pvc gluing surface area. If I remember correctly it's the DWV (drain/waste/vent) stuff that is not pressure rated and has a shallow socket. Savco will definitely be getting sick of me over the next few weeks. :D I'll hit Pete up as well. He's well versed in manifolds from what I understand.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14916342#post14916342 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by drummereef
Thanks Marc. Well dangit, I figured there would be some leakage but now I know for sure. :) Back to the drawing board... I remember reading about the pvc gluing surface area. If I remember correctly it's the DWV (drain/waste/vent) stuff that is not pressure rated and has a shallow socket. Savco will definitely be getting sick of me over the next few weeks. :D I'll hit Pete up as well. He's well versed in manifolds from what I understand.

the design looks good, some comments

With a good pump that delivers a good flow at a decent pressure, the sweeps don't gain a whole lot. Sweeps on drain lines are a huge benefit as you only have gravity moving the water and you need to allow for air to escape.

when a system shuts down (eg feeding mode) it's inevitable you will get air in the pipe all the way down to the sump level (both drains and returns) your design blows most of the air to the returns but you will get some on you reactors. The only way to prevent an elevated (higher then sump level) section of pipe not to drain is to have both ends below the pump off sump level.

So, the only for sure way to prevent air burps in reactors is to have the supply tee from the pump located below the sump level and to have the reactor outlet lines empty into the sump below the sump water level. This approach provides a liquid seal.

a way to help minimize reactor burp would be to put a recirc line at the end of the header run. Most of the air will try to run to the last and highest exit point. If you go this route you want the reactors to create liquid pockets that don't syphon. The return lines should return to a point higher then the reactors and be open to the air. This can be done by hanging the reactors on the outside of the sump, or place them in the sump, or if elevated above the sump use a stand pipe for the return lines that is open on top.

other common suggestions I make:

design your drain lines first, minimize all turns, use hard pipe for horizontal runs and install with a slope of 1/8 to 1/4 " per foot. Use drain fittings (sweeps). Spa flex sags on horizontal runs and creates dips and high points that create air pockets and will slow the flow and may gurgle. Think of your drain like a water slide.

keep your pump suction as short and straight as possible

no check valves, they are a failure point, design the system to completely drain to the sump level

make sure you can drain your display (or elevated refugium) as fast as you fill it

union ball valves are more expensive then they are worth (IMO)

design all piping to be removable with unions or threaded where unions don't work

I'm probably forgetting some things.

Love the design :thumbsup:
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14916791#post14916791 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by psteeleb
the design looks good, some comments

With a good pump that delivers a good flow at a decent pressure, the sweeps don't gain a whole lot. Sweeps on drain lines are a huge benefit as you only have gravity moving the water and you need to allow for air to escape.

when a system shuts down (eg feeding mode) it's inevitable you will get air in the pipe all the way down to the sump level (both drains and returns) your design blows most of the air to the returns but you will get some on you reactors. The only way to prevent an elevated (higher then sump level) section of pipe not to drain is to have both ends below the pump off sump level.

So, the only for sure way to prevent air burps in reactors is to have the supply tee from the pump located below the sump level and to have the reactor outlet lines empty into the sump below the sump water level. This approach provides a liquid seal.

a way to help minimize reactor burp would be to put a recirc line at the end of the header run. Most of the air will try to run to the last and highest exit point. If you go this route you want the reactors to create liquid pockets that don't syphon. The return lines should return to a point higher then the reactors and be open to the air. This can be done by hanging the reactors on the outside of the sump, or place them in the sump, or if elevated above the sump use a stand pipe for the return lines that is open on top.

other common suggestions I make:

design your drain lines first, minimize all turns, use hard pipe for horizontal runs and install with a slope of 1/8 to 1/4 " per foot. Use drain fittings (sweeps). Spa flex sags on horizontal runs and creates dips and high points that create air pockets and will slow the flow and may gurgle. Think of your drain like a water slide.

keep your pump suction as short and straight as possible

no check valves, they are a failure point, design the system to completely drain to the sump level

make sure you can drain your display (or elevated refugium) as fast as you fill it

union ball valves are more expensive then they are worth (IMO)

design all piping to be removable with unions or threaded where unions don't work

I'm probably forgetting some things.

Love the design :thumbsup:

Wow Pete, Melev was right... You ARE the man! :thumbsup: Thank you for your insight into the design. With the design of the system and stand I don't think I'll be able to have a supply tee from the pump located below the sump level unfortunately. But, I like the idea of a recirc line at the end of the header run. By "header run" you are referring to the main return trunk or at the end of the manifold breakout?
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14913986#post14913986 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by justdoit
That's one nice set up..I like how you took the time and did it right....Good job good luck hope to see more pics...

Thanks justdoit. :)
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14916841#post14916841 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by drummereef
Wow Pete, Melev was right... You ARE the man! :thumbsup: Thank you for your insight into the design. With the design of the system and stand I don't think I'll be able to have a supply tee from the pump located below the sump level unfortunately. But, I like the idea of a recirc line at the end of the header run. By "header run" you are referring to the main return trunk or at the end of the manifold breakout?

my pleasure :)

most systems you cant get the supply below the sump level due to the pump discharge level. just wanted to get the concept in.

the vent should go on your mini header as your main return looks like it will blow most of the air to the return and that's fine. it will just be the little bit in the reactors and mini header.
If you tube your return lines from your reactors to a point above the header you can probably keep the reactors and mini header flooded. you can do this by taking a piece of 1" pipe, drill some holes in the bottom and stand it in the sump with the upper end above the mini header. then run your 1/2" tubing from the reactors up into the open end of the stand pipe. this way it will only syphon to that level (above the header) keeping the reactors and mini header flooded.

you don't need that valve on the pump discharge. you have all your other users valved. As seldom as you will need to take the main pump out isolating the system at each user is not a big deal - at least, that's how I have mine.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14917086#post14917086 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by psteeleb
my pleasure :)

most systems you cant get the supply below the sump level due to the pump discharge level. just wanted to get the concept in.

the vent should go on your mini header as your main return looks like it will blow most of the air to the return and that's fine. it will just be the little bit in the reactors and mini header.
If you tube your return lines from your reactors to a point above the header you can probably keep the reactors and mini header flooded. you can do this by taking a piece of 1" pipe, drill some holes in the bottom and stand it in the sump with the upper end above the mini header. then run your 1/2" tubing from the reactors up into the open end of the stand pipe. this way it will only syphon to that level (above the header) keeping the reactors and mini header flooded.

you don't need that valve on the pump discharge. you have all your other users valved. As seldom as you will need to take the main pump out isolating the system at each user is not a big deal - at least, that's how I have mine.


OK, it's starting to make sense now. :) Tswifty also had the idea of either connecting the manifold back into the main return line, or looping it back to the return. Or, having a "bleeder" at the end of the manifold that drains back to the sump. Is this what you mean when you say "recirc"? He seems to think it would blow the air past the reactors and back into the sump.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14917086#post14917086 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by psteeleb
my pleasure :)

you don't need that valve on the pump discharge. you have all your other users valved. As seldom as you will need to take the main pump out isolating the system at each user is not a big deal - at least, that's how I have mine.


One more thought for you... My idea for the two true union ball valves used on the two returns was just for system balancing. I was anticipating a balance issue from left to right the way the system is plumbed. The main gate valve would be used, once the balance has been set, to adjust overall flow to the display.
 
I have been lurking for weeks, I'm fairly new to the hobby. This thread is so detailed and completely awesome that I registered just to say thanks!

I only have one question though; What about the viewing shelf for the bottle...errr glass of wine?

-B
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14917113#post14917113 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by drummereef
OK, it's starting to make sense now. :) Tswifty also had the idea of either connecting the manifold back into the main return line, or looping it back to the return. Or, having a "bleeder" at the end of the manifold that drains back to the sump. Is this what you mean when you say "recirc"? He seems to think it would blow the air past the reactors and back into the sump.

exactly - and TJ described it better then I did. But I've been driving the past two days and was tired :lol: (as I give a lme excuse)
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14917297#post14917297 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by drummereef
One more thought for you... My idea for the two true union ball valves used on the two returns was just for system balancing. I was anticipating a balance issue from left to right the way the system is plumbed. The main gate valve would be used, once the balance has been set, to adjust overall flow to the display.

nothing wrong with that and good concept

I suspect you will have the main return valve wide open and the refuguim throttled back. You will also find you will get a slug of water on start up in your reactors unless you throttle back on the mini header valve to about 10% flow. I set my reactor feed valve to about 10% open and my individual reactor valves are about 50% as a fine tune on the flow to each one. Between the two the flow is right and I don't get as much slug flow on start up.

Also on valves; once your system is up and running a few months it's a good idea to fully open and fully close the valves a few times as a way to break free the any build up you will eventually get on them. Other wise it only takes a few months for valves to essentially become cemented in the position you had them in.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14917477#post14917477 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BZepha
I have been lurking for weeks, I'm fairly new to the hobby. This thread is so detailed and completely awesome that I registered just to say thanks!

I only have one question though; What about the viewing shelf for the bottle...errr glass of wine?

-B

Thanks BZepha! And...

[welcome]
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14917663#post14917663 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by psteeleb
nothing wrong with that and good concept

I suspect you will have the main return valve wide open and the refuguim throttled back. You will also find you will get a slug of water on start up in your reactors unless you throttle back on the mini header valve to about 10% flow. I set my reactor feed valve to about 10% open and my individual reactor valves are about 50% as a fine tune on the flow to each one. Between the two the flow is right and I don't get as much slug flow on start up.

Also on valves; once your system is up and running a few months it's a good idea to fully open and fully close the valves a few times as a way to break free the any build up you will eventually get on them. Other wise it only takes a few months for valves to essentially become cemented in the position you had them in.
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14917642#post14917642 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by psteeleb
exactly - and TJ described it better then I did. But I've been driving the past two days and was tired :lol: (as I give a lme excuse)

Great Pete, thanks again. One last question for you... All of my return plumbing is 1.5" pvc all the way until it hits the bulkheads in the display where it transitions to 1". What size pvc would you make the manifold header? Or, would you keep it 1.5" and reduce at each ball valve?



Here's the latest drawings with all ideas incorporated. The recirc (bleeder) is returned to the skimmer section. :)


PlumbingColorCodedFront-1.jpg~original



PlumbingColorCodedRight-1.jpg~original
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I would run that header as 3/4" and use 3/4" slip by threaded tees. then use a 3/4" by 1/2" threaded bushing and 1/2" inch threaded valves. this would give you the ability to remove the valves for replacement if they go bad and or change them to a 3/4 if you need a larger supply size. Or go with 3/4 slip by 1/2" threaded tees and avoid the bushings but a little less upgradability
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14919372#post14919372 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by psteeleb
I would run that header as 3/4" and use 3/4" slip by threaded tees. then use a 3/4" by 1/2" threaded bushing and 1/2" inch threaded valves. this would give you the ability to remove the valves for replacement if they go bad and or change them to a 3/4 if you need a larger supply size. Or go with 3/4 slip by 1/2" threaded tees and avoid the bushings but a little less upgradability

Got it. Sounds like a plan Pete. Thanks again for all the help you've been on this. If you can think of anything else feel free to voice it. I probably am going to get started on the initial plumbing in the next couple weeks. :)
 
Yay! I ran my manifold as 3/4" reduced to 1/2" ball valves. I do wish now that I had done what Psteeleb suggested and used threaded 1/2" ball valves instead of my union ball valves, especially since the unions on them are non standard...

Thank you Psteeleb for posting all your thoughts in such a clear and easy to understand way! You've helped out more than just drummereef.
 
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