drummereef's 180g in-wall build

[drummereef]

I'll post the programs tonight when I get back home

back prior to controllers there was a lot of concern about too much Co2 dropping the pH so much you would melt the media

you had to set the flow rate, Co2 bubble rate just right in harmony to get the desired results and they took days to get it right. for example too much water flow and you could not get the pH to drop enough and you tried to compensate with more Co2 or vice versa

Water flows in the slow drip range tended to slow down over time due to calcium build up also creating problems

I found setting the water flow rate to just over a drip count or minimum stream works best. Then adjusting the bubble count to get a pH reading around 6.65 works well. Most people tried to get the bubble count set then use the pH controller as a back up for too much Co2. This is still a good approach but what I like is to go just past the minimum and let the system turn off/on the Co2 giving you more control on the pH zone. The contoller on/off is what I monitor and alarm for if it's constantly on it's a good indicator the Co2 bottle is low or your water flow is too high and if it's off too long it's a good indicator you have a clog in your water flow.

I also use the controller to turn off the Ca reactor at night when the pH naturally drops and only run it when the lights are on helping to offset pH swings (no need for a dual chamber)

This program looks at the pH in the Ca reactor and if it’s on and the ph is outside the set parameters the alarm sounds. So if there is a too much flow the pH would not reach 7.0. The below 6.3 is there as a fail safe in the event the solenoid gets stuck in the on position

Set OFF
If Outlet V_CA_C02_Ala = ON Then ON
If pH2 > 07.00 Then ON
If pH2 < 06.30 Then ON
If Time 20:00 to 13:00 Then OFF


This next program monitors the Ca reactor solenoid activity. If it remains on for more then 60 minutes the alarm sounds. This would indicate there is not enough Co2 entering the chamber due to a low C02 amount or the water flow through the chamber is to fast for the Co2 to drop to the desired level.

Set ON
If Outlet Ca_Rx_pH = ON Then OFF
Defer 060:00 Then ON
If Time 20:00 to 11:00 Then OFF

The solenoid is controled by the pH in the reactor chamber with the following program. As you can see I run the reactor from 12 noon to 9 pm and try to keep the pH between 6.65 and 6.75. This set up keeps my tank Alk at about 10 dkh and Ca around 500. I keep it high in the event I'm gone for a couple days when something goes wrong or run low on C02 etc.

Fallback OFF
If pH2 > 06.75 Then ON
If pH2 < 06.65 Then OFF
If Time 21:00 to 12:00 Then OFF

Excellent information as always Pete. Give me a bit to digest all of this, but I'm getting the general idea of the layers of backup you incorporate. I've heard it's best to run these things 24/7 to minimize pH fluctuation inside the reactor, but you haven't had any issues cycling ON/OFF throughout the day? Thanks again.

I´m using the MA 957 CO2 regulator with the Milwaukee SMS 122

Great, thank you Vlado.

Brett,

Have you thought about just balling dosing both Ca and Alk? I sold my Ca reactor about a year ago because exactly what happened with Pete's programming happened to me. For some reason when my C02 got low the pressure in the tank changes and it messed with how much gas was coming in and it almost nuked my tank.

It was the #1 piece of equipment I was looking at EVERY SINGLE DAY to make sure my drip rate was steady, ph was perfect, flow was good, etc.

I went to a bubble magus doser and could not be happier. I make up 5 gallons at a time and they last me 4-6 months because I'm using the reciple that is half strength.

While Ca reactors work great when they are working....it always seemed to me it was the biggest heartache that I constantly worried about in my tank. You hear all the horror stories constantly about them too.

Just food for thought about your options.

I appreciate the info Josh. What regulator did you use with your CaRx? Seems like most of the problems stem from regulator issues... at least from what I've seen. Also, you said you were using the half-strength balling dose, what is that exactly?

I dosed Randy's 2-part (3-part really) on my old 40g and it worked well. My only complaint was having to mix up the different parts frequently for my tank's demand. I know the balling method is slightly different from 2-part dosing but haven't researched enough to know how the recipes differ.

 

[110galreef]

Brett, what Kals mix are you using. I am looking to have a 30g SPS qt setup and plan to just dose Kalk for siple solution....

Now what is all this CaRx nonesense...haha:deadhorse1:
I have kicked around CaRx many of times. Just not sure worth the frustrations headaches, equipment, and possible issues, etc.....

Been dosing 2 part for 2 yrs now and love it. Very easy and no issues. Many back up and failsafes...

I am currently dosing 310ml/day of alk & cal & seem to have to add about 1000ml of MG every week manually. Could use channel 3 but ...easy enuf to add manually.

I have bubble magus doser, doses 310ml /day broken over every other hr. I have 2.5l holding jugs holding solution which whill get me about 7-10day w/o needing refill. I make up 2.5g solutions which last about a month for me right now. They are wide mouth jugs and really hold about 3 gals so very easy to add solution and mix it up! I also add trace elements to my cal solution so that adds a little extra

I can hgook you up on the containers if you need to. Also as a failsafe you can only keep say 7-10 days of solution so if a siphon or pump stays on, you wont kill your tank, just have a blizzard! Not that I know about that!:debi:

 

[cromedogg33]

Brett, I'm using randy's 2 part as well, I just use I believe recipe 2 which has a PH lowering affect. I don't have low PH problems being in my basement. I've never seen the PH reduce while dosing but then again I'm really not concerned about my PH while dosing. It's also half the strength as recipe 1. I think I'm dosing 160ml a day of recipe 2.

After having a calcium reactor and a doser, I would never go back to the reactor. Like I said earlier I do think they have their place, but my tank isn't big enough to worry about it.

Monolith Marine m3 dual gauge solenoid w/bubble counter was the regulator I was using.

I really enjoy the doser. Depending on which route you could go it's really nice to be able to add/remove pumps or add on pieces if needed. I'm running all 3 pumps with ca/alk/mag. I've used one of the pumps before to add lacl3 and vodka at one point.

 

[psteeleb]

Excellent information as always Pete. Give me a bit to digest all of this, but I'm getting the general idea of the layers of backup you incorporate. I've heard it's best to run these things 24/7 to minimize pH fluctuation inside the reactor, but you haven't had any issues cycling ON/OFF throughout the day? Thanks again.

Not sure what problems could be created when not running the Ca Rx 24/7. Yes the pH swings but not sure why this would be an issue when contained to just the media and reactor chamber.

here's a chart with some data. The yellowish green shows the CaRx cycling durring the day time. The blue is the tank pH, and the red the Ca Rx chamber pH. I also tried to show when my T5's are on and you can see how stable the tank pH is at that time interval. I have some LED's out of commision so the tank Ph shows a slight dip at the end of the cycle. When I put them back in service the drop will not be as much as shown. The total pH swing in the tank is shown ~0.12

 

[drummereef]

Brett, what Kals mix are you using. I am looking to have a 30g SPS qt setup and plan to just dose Kalk for siple solution....

Now what is all this CaRx nonesense...haha:deadhorse1:
I have kicked around CaRx many of times. Just not sure worth the frustrations headaches, equipment, and possible issues, etc.....

Been dosing 2 part for 2 yrs now and love it. Very easy and no issues. Many back up and failsafes...

I am currently dosing 310ml/day of alk & cal & seem to have to add about 1000ml of MG every week manually. Could use channel 3 but ...easy enuf to add manually.

I have bubble magus doser, doses 310ml /day broken over every other hr. I have 2.5l holding jugs holding solution which whill get me about 7-10day w/o needing refill. I make up 2.5g solutions which last about a month for me right now. They are wide mouth jugs and really hold about 3 gals so very easy to add solution and mix it up! I also add trace elements to my cal solution so that adds a little extra

I can hgook you up on the containers if you need to. Also as a failsafe you can only keep say 7-10 days of solution so if a siphon or pump stays on, you wont kill your tank, just have a blizzard! Not that I know about that!:debi:

Haha, so much CaRx hatin' today. :lol: Kidding. I use BRS Kalkwasser currently. From what I've read it's about as pure as you can get, fairly cheap, and works good. I'd think it would be a good way to dose your frag tank and it would be cheap to implement. I hear you with your CaRx concerns. From what I've seen it's mostly due to somewhat cheapo regulators - specifically the lower-end needle valves used. Have to spend some money to get a reliable regulator from what I've seen/been told... i.e. Carbon Doser or Green Leaf regulators, but of course there's always risks to these things.


I dosed 2-part on my old 40g with great success. It works very well. Overtime I just got sick of having to mix solutions, like what I'm going through now. Not that it's the end of the world, just wasn't my favorite thing to have to do. I have a few reefer friends in my area who both use CaRx successfully and have reefs to drool over so I know those work great too - and they swear by them. I appreciate the offer on the containers btw, I'll let you know what I end up deciding on.

Brett, I'm using randy's 2 part as well, I just use I believe recipe 2 which has a PH lowering affect. I don't have low PH problems being in my basement. I've never seen the PH reduce while dosing but then again I'm really not concerned about my PH while dosing. It's also half the strength as recipe 1. I think I'm dosing 160ml a day of recipe 2.

After having a calcium reactor and a doser, I would never go back to the reactor. Like I said earlier I do think they have their place, but my tank isn't big enough to worry about it.

Monolith Marine m3 dual gauge solenoid w/bubble counter was the regulator I was using.

I really enjoy the doser. Depending on which route you could go it's really nice to be able to add/remove pumps or add on pieces if needed. I'm running all 3 pumps with ca/alk/mag. I've used one of the pumps before to add lacl3 and vodka at one point.

Indeed. Thanks for the heads up Josh, much appreciated as always.

Not sure what problems could be created when not running the Ca Rx 24/7. Yes the pH swings but not sure why this would be an issue when contained to just the media and reactor chamber.

here's a chart with some data. The yellowish green shows the CaRx cycling durring the day time. The blue is the tank pH, and the red the Ca Rx chamber pH. I also tried to show when my T5's are on and you can see how stable the tank pH is at that time interval. I have some LED's out of commision so the tank Ph shows a slight dip at the end of the cycle. When I put them back in service the drop will not be as much as shown. The total pH swing in the tank is shown ~0.12

Nice. Thanks again Pete. What's your thoughts on running Neo Mag on top of the ARM for magnesium? Benefits/necessary?

 

[cromedogg33]

Personally I feel all regulators will go bad eventually. It doesn't matter cheap/expensive or otherwise.

It was mine going bad that was the end of the ca rx for me. I figured, why have the chance of that equipment going bad and ruin my tank in a matter or hours. Dosers are pretty fail safe when compared.

 

[psteeleb]

Nice. Thanks again Pete. What's your thoughts on running Neo Mag on top of the ARM for magnesium? Benefits/necessary?

I may have to try it - I'm using ARM, it's supose to have a high Mg content but I still have to monitor and add Mg on a regular basis

I agree with the others on the Ca Rx concerns but I've run 3part, kalc and CaRx and found that as long as you monitor them the Ca reactors work well.

in my current set up a regulator or controller failure would result in cutting off the C02 supply or shutting the reactor down.

The issues I've heard about first hand have always been due to someone not checking the reactors for low media, low C02, clogs etc. routinely. In every case I am aware of they had a problem and let it go for days or even weeks unchecked untill they had issues with corals. I check mine every day I'm home and have the alarms as another means of reporting issues so I'm pretty comfortable with the set up as is (hope that's not the kiss of death).

2 part is nice but is more expensive and a pain to keep mixing up in a heavily stocked sps system. My 300g was sucking the stuff up to the point where it seemed all I was doing to my tank was mixing new batches of two part on a regular basis.

 

[drummereef]

Personally I feel all regulators will go bad eventually. It doesn't matter cheap/expensive or otherwise.

It was mine going bad that was the end of the ca rx for me. I figured, why have the chance of that equipment going bad and ruin my tank in a matter or hours. Dosers are pretty fail safe when compared.

Indeed and agree Josh. How much is your daily demand and how big are the mixing containers for each solution you use?

I may have to try it - I'm using ARM, it's supose to have a high Mg content but I still have to monitor and add Mg on a regular basis

I agree with the others on the Ca Rx concerns but I've run 3part, kalc and CaRx and found that as long as you monitor them the Ca reactors work well.

in my current set up a regulator or controller failure would result in cutting off the C02 supply or shutting the reactor down.

The issues I've heard about first hand have always been due to someone not checking the reactors for low media, low C02, clogs etc. routinely. In every case I am aware of they had a problem and let it go for days or even weeks unchecked untill they had issues with corals. I check mine every day I'm home and have the alarms as another means of reporting issues so I'm pretty comfortable with the set up as is (hope that's not the kiss of death).

2 part is nice but is more expensive and a pain to keep mixing up in a heavily stocked sps system. My 300g was sucking the stuff up to the point where it seemed all I was doing to my tank was mixing new batches of two part on a regular basis.

Yes, that's where I feel I'm at right now. Mixing Kalk every 2 days, simply because I don't like having more than 5g of the stuff mixed at one time just for peace of mind I won't O.D. if there's a dosing failure. I do agree, your backups/alarms pretty much eliminate the fear in them, except for having to pony up some immediate dough if there's an equipment failure. The guys I know that run them successfully use Geo Reactors exclusively and high end regulators just to mitigate some of the worry of mechanical failure.

One more question and I promise I won't bug you (until tomorrow - maybe) haha. Do you see a significant benefit with the "trace" elements provided by the ARM media? Or is that hit or miss in regards to the effects on the corals? Seems to me every tank in my area that I've seen run CaRx look dang good. Probably just the dedication of husbandry by these guys, but the proof is in the pudding, as they say.

 

[110galreef]

psteeleb...how much were you dosing every day....
Brett your way beyond Kalk....

Again I am dosing 310ml/day currently
1.) I mix up 2.5g main batches once a month...
fill w/ RO/DI, measure powder in 4c measuring cup, add 5/6.25c CAL/ALK thru funnel, shake for a minute Done!!
2.)Refil dosing jugs once a week. I don't do more to prevent accidental overdose. Takes 2 mins tops to refil both so not a big deal
3.) I add ~ 30ml trace to the CAL jug (adds~ 3ml/day of trace ellements)
4.)Test tank weekly.....

I also calulated cost for me annually...Just switched from 1g jugs to the 5g buckets. Just a few bucks cheaper. I get from BRS

I get ~ 7gal solution /1g powder ALK...35g/5g OR 132,425ml solution/5g powder $68/5g bucket
I get ~ 8gal solution /1g powder CAl.....40g/5g OR 151,400ml solution/5g powder $68/5g bucket

at 310 ml per day I have 427 days of ALK & 473 days of ALK
So basically total cost for 1.2yrs is $136. or ~ $110/yr of solution

And if we want to throw out electrcity cosy, my doser uses 3 w, which equates to less than $2 for the yr in electricity.

Start up was $299, doser
~$75 for ALK & CAL holding jugs...can go cheaper but i went nice...
~$35 for 2.5g wide mouth jugs & measuring cups and funnels!

all still kicking w/o issues 2 yrs later! No worries of overdosing. Only issue to arise is a pump dying and not adding solutions and levels falling. But i typically see my tank every day and would catch before got to far off. No recalibrating, adjustisting, tinkering, cleaning or maintence(Not Brett approved then as you seem to always do these! haha :beer
other than an occasional rinsing wiping of the dosing jugs

 

[cromedogg33]

This is a great pro/con for both I must say.

What Pete says is spot on with his reactors. I more than likely wouldn't touch anything other than a Geo with a high end regulator as well. His backup plan is very solid with going through the apex.

He also reitterated the fact that he checks that piece of equipment EVERY SINGLE DAY. I went through the same thing and it became like mixing up solution to me. My breaking point came when I knew my c02 was going low but still what I had thought of what should have been in normal operating range. Lets just say it wasn't.

I'm using DIY 2 part recipe 2 (half strength)
~160ml a day of both ca/alk
I have them in the 5g water jugs with the caps. I have to make a new 5g batch right now about every 3-4 months. If my math is correct I'm making up 18925ml per batch. Divide by 160ml I use per day and it lasts me about 118 days.

Now keep in mind I'm using recipe 2. So in theory if I was to switch out to recipe 1 I would be dosing half the amount and could stretch out a 5g amount of solution to 5-6 months. My demand isn't quite high enough and I wanted to be able to add solution 24 cycles a day and have it be at least a little amount.

As far as expense, I think they are very comparable depending on the route you go. Sure you can buy from BRS etc. or you can go to costco and buy a big box of baking soda. It really depends on your concern levels. By the time you pay for a pump on the geo running 24/7 and adding heat if you keep it in your sump, it may or may not be more expensive. Your up front cost is more expensive with a Ca Rx as well.

 

[drummereef]

Brett your way beyond Kalk....

You are so right. :rollface:

As far as expense, I think they are very comparable depending on the route you go. Sure you can buy from BRS etc. or you can go to costco and buy a big box of baking soda. It really depends on your concern levels. By the time you pay for a pump on the geo running 24/7 and adding heat if you keep it in your sump, it may or may not be more expensive. Your up front cost is more expensive with a Ca Rx as well.

Thanks for the info Josh. I agree, it typically becomes a wash after ~18 months, depending on the tanks demand. For heavy SPS I'd say long term dollar for dollar is in favor of the reactor but there's the obvious concerns as we've discussed. Very interesting topic to say the least! But something I'm going to have to make a decision on within 1-2 months as nearing my pH limit with the amount of Kalk I'm currently dosing. You have a solid setup there's no doubt. How heavy on the SPS side are you now?

 

[cromedogg33]

I've always been 90% SPS with clams, and some very scattered LPS.

 

[psteeleb]

Do you see a significant benefit with the "trace" elements provided by the ARM media?

not yet - I switched to it a couple months ago in hopes to cut back on Mg dosing but it's not enough. I have other issues like fish and limpets munching on corals that need to be dealt with, much less all the changes I'm in process of making on my lights.

IMHO the best is a combo of CaRx with some kalc (be it by top off or other means).

 

[psteeleb]

psteeleb...how much were you dosing every day....

I quit using 2 part when it got to over 2 cups per day each of Randy's recipe (the higher concentrated one). When I went to a Ca reactor I noticed an improvement in the corals. Later on I even added some low dose kalc at night and the corals really took off.

 

[drummereef]

I've always been 90% SPS with clams, and some very scattered LPS.

Excellent, thanks.

not yet - I switched to it a couple months ago in hopes to cut back on Mg dosing but it's not enough. I have other issues like fish and limpets munching on corals that need to be dealt with, much less all the changes I'm in process of making on my lights.

IMHO the best is a combo of CaRx with some kalc (be it by top off or other means).

Thanks again Pete.

 

[cromedogg33]

Brett,

You have Red Halymenia in your fuge don't you? I've been looking to add to my algae selection that is controllable. How's it growing for you? Is it invasive at all?

 

[drummereef]

Brett,

You have Red Halymenia in your fuge don't you? I've been looking to add to my algae selection that is controllable. How's it growing for you? Is it invasive at all?

I had some Red Gracilaria in my sump a while back but it ended up dying off due to a cyano issue. I added it shortly after I had set up the fuge which went through a couple algae cycles. I wouldn't mind adding some more at some point as I've heard Tangs really like it. I like the looks of the Halymenia you mentioned as well. I'd also like to add some Ulva at some point as well if I can find it.

 

[henrystyle]

Excuse me. Since where talking about macroalgae, does anyone know what this is? I cant find an ID on it. Got it growing well in my refugium.. Grows like a mat and floats on the surface.

 

[drummereef]

Don't know but the closest guess would be Scinaia. Second guess would be either red grape or red bubble algae.

 

[henrystyle]

no, its neither of those. No one seems to know.