Dsb's work, what makes them work best?
- Thread starter barryhc
- Start date
Paul B
Premium Member
Joefish, It is mostly gorgonians, mushrooms, bubbles, hammers and only one SPS. I just like LPS better, I like the movement.
The only SPS is a tongue coral that I got as a gift. It is doing well but as you know, they don't do much.
You can see most of it in here.
The only SPS is at the left in this picture.
The only SPS is a tongue coral that I got as a gift. It is doing well but as you know, they don't do much.
You can see most of it in here.
The only SPS is at the left in this picture.
We have the low pH condition that is releasing various compounds "into solution". What are these these compounds, depending on the substrate composition?
I'm trying to "get a handle" on them myself.
Hydrogen Sulfide is a big one of course, and probabaly more often pointed out as a process "to fear" in relation to operating a DSB than anything else. We know that it can, and does, occur in DSB's, at least some of the time, maybe all the time, but likely to various degrees depending on feeding, substrate composition, etc. etc. .
If Nitrate is being "processed" in the low oxygen Hypoxic zone, then there should be less Nitrate lower, in the Anoxic zone correct? Now, is "diffusion" going to cause Nitrate to be drawn even deeper into the bed, or is "all of it" processed in the Hypoxic zone, and effectively "stopped" there?
I don't know.
So we have minerals and compounds, maybe even some "nutrients" ( loose description ) like PO4 and Nitrate. Not sure on the Nitrate.
How about Iron and Copper. There are a lot of "elements" here, but let's try to look at the ones that engage in the "processes" down here. We've got Iron I think, and PO4, maybe Nitrate. What else?
H-m-m-m . . . . > Barry
I'm trying to "get a handle" on them myself.
Hydrogen Sulfide is a big one of course, and probabaly more often pointed out as a process "to fear" in relation to operating a DSB than anything else. We know that it can, and does, occur in DSB's, at least some of the time, maybe all the time, but likely to various degrees depending on feeding, substrate composition, etc. etc. .
If Nitrate is being "processed" in the low oxygen Hypoxic zone, then there should be less Nitrate lower, in the Anoxic zone correct? Now, is "diffusion" going to cause Nitrate to be drawn even deeper into the bed, or is "all of it" processed in the Hypoxic zone, and effectively "stopped" there?
I don't know.
So we have minerals and compounds, maybe even some "nutrients" ( loose description ) like PO4 and Nitrate. Not sure on the Nitrate.
How about Iron and Copper. There are a lot of "elements" here, but let's try to look at the ones that engage in the "processes" down here. We've got Iron I think, and PO4, maybe Nitrate. What else?
H-m-m-m . . . . > Barry
Weatherman
New member
If there isnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t any oxygen or nitrate, there are three other common electron receptors for decomposition of organic material:
Manganese Oxide:
106(CH2O)16(NH3)(H3PO4) + 236 MnO2 + 472 H+ -----> 106 CO2 + 236 Mn2+ + 8 N2 + H3PO4 + 366 H2O
Produces carbon dioxide, free manganese ions, nitrogen, phosphate and water
Iron Oxyhydroxide:
106(CH2O)16(NH3)(H3PO4) + 212 Fe2O3 (or 424 FeOOH) + 848 H+ -----> 106 CO2 + 16NH3 + H3PO4 + 742 H2O + 424 Fe2+
Produces carbon dioxide, ammonia, phosphate, water and free iron ions
Sulfate:
106(CH2O)16(NH3)(H3PO4) + 53SO42- -----> 106 CO2 + 16 NH3 + H3PO4 + 106 H2O + 53 S2-
Produces carbon dioxide, ammonia, phosphate, water and free sulfur ions
Manganese Oxide:
106(CH2O)16(NH3)(H3PO4) + 236 MnO2 + 472 H+ -----> 106 CO2 + 236 Mn2+ + 8 N2 + H3PO4 + 366 H2O
Produces carbon dioxide, free manganese ions, nitrogen, phosphate and water
Iron Oxyhydroxide:
106(CH2O)16(NH3)(H3PO4) + 212 Fe2O3 (or 424 FeOOH) + 848 H+ -----> 106 CO2 + 16NH3 + H3PO4 + 742 H2O + 424 Fe2+
Produces carbon dioxide, ammonia, phosphate, water and free iron ions
Sulfate:
106(CH2O)16(NH3)(H3PO4) + 53SO42- -----> 106 CO2 + 16 NH3 + H3PO4 + 106 H2O + 53 S2-
Produces carbon dioxide, ammonia, phosphate, water and free sulfur ions
Both of these comments are kind of OT right now but also kind of on Topic:
Weatherman or Barry (or anyone else who knows),
Why do some tanks have problems with Hydrogen Sulphide and some not? I've seen it before on one of my tanks and it basically formed in the corner of my tank that had the least flow. It was also in the same back corner where I hid my pod-pile of rubble. Additionally, that corner had a lot of rock buried there. Is it a balance of SOB's and SRB's? Did the lack of flow in that area allow the anearobic zone to rise quicker in that area in your opinion. I know a number of things that go on down lower but I always found this coincidence interesting and wanted your thoughts.
Ever since then, on my DSB tanks, I've stood my LR on little pylons so the rock is suspended a little to increase flow and separate the LR from the sandbed.
Weatherman or Barry (or anyone else who knows),
Why do some tanks have problems with Hydrogen Sulphide and some not? I've seen it before on one of my tanks and it basically formed in the corner of my tank that had the least flow. It was also in the same back corner where I hid my pod-pile of rubble. Additionally, that corner had a lot of rock buried there. Is it a balance of SOB's and SRB's? Did the lack of flow in that area allow the anearobic zone to rise quicker in that area in your opinion. I know a number of things that go on down lower but I always found this coincidence interesting and wanted your thoughts.
Ever since then, on my DSB tanks, I've stood my LR on little pylons so the rock is suspended a little to increase flow and separate the LR from the sandbed.
I assume OT means Over The Top.
If so, then it is really UTHZ. :lol:
There are some algaes that will grow down in the sand that look "almost" identical to "Hydrogen Sulfide". The "Mimic Algae" will be "black". Hydrogen Sulfide generally has a gray "core" surrounded by black. This often times leads to mis-identification.
What do you mean by rock "buried" there? Do you mean rock that is "partially buried" in the sand?
Possibly, of course, but if that is the reason, then why is it not consistent in "most" tanks? Husbandry, bio-load, feeding, etc. and on "et al" ? More than likely, of course, but on that basis, we're back to Joe's question. "How can I tell" ?
And what about substrate composition as well ?
If the pod population was unable to maintain itself, on the basis of either habitat, or predation, then the low flow, along with the "rubble", might add to nutrient collection, without a sufficient animal population to process it.
I agree with this method for all tanks, period !
> Barry
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6538466#post6538466 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by barryhc
I assume OT means Over The Top.
If so, then it is really UTHZ. :lol:
There are some algaes that will grow down in the sand that look "almost" identical to "Hydrogen Sulfide". The "Mimic Algae" will be "black". Hydrogen Sulfide generally has a gray "core" surrounded by black. This often times leads to mis-identification.
Yeah, I've seen those before but they are mainly at the edges of the glass. They tend to bind together sand particles there. I'm of the opinion that the combination of sunlight and the light transmission properties of the glass (think fiber optics here) bring light to them. However, this was clearly a sulphide zone. A friend of mine produced a pamphlet on DSB's while back and had quotes from a lot of the promoters of a DSB in it. Yet one picture it had in it showed a sulphide zone and my thought was, "Why on earth did you show that picture???" Another interesting factoid is that sulphide zones are invisible unless Iron is present.
Yeah, partially buried.
Actually, I don't know how anyone can tell. I certainly couldn't. I wish there was a way to tell but I'm highly doubtful anyone can. My thought (right or wrong) was that I starved that corner of Oxygenated water and that was (at least partially) responsible for my sulphide zone.
I didn't find a lot of nutrient collection but then again, I didn't disturb the pile often. Mysis and copepods and amphipods were growing and keeping most of my microalgaes in check so I didn't move the pile.
Thanks for your post Weatherman. It gives us some idea of the processes that are occuring.
Unfortunately, it is both overly complex, and overly simplistic, simeltaneously.
Please help us out here "a bit", with a somewhat more "laymanized" version, "if you will".
We're making a bit of progress here, and your input is appreciated.
> Barry
Unfortunately, it is both overly complex, and overly simplistic, simeltaneously.
Please help us out here "a bit", with a somewhat more "laymanized" version, "if you will".
We're making a bit of progress here, and your input is appreciated.
> Barry
I saw Iron in Weatherman's process definitions, I thought it was a part of the hydrogen Sulfide formation process, but I don't see Iron in the Sulfate "definition".
Well, there you are ( or were ).
If we starve the substrate of oxygen, then how do the nutrients get to the Anoxic Zone for processing anyway?
PaulB would be proud of you, or at least "pat you on the back".
> Barry
Paul B
Premium Member
Actually, my very first salt tank had a DSB (in the sixtees) I used beach sand because there was no sand or gravel for sale yet
(there was no salt water hobby yet) In a couple of weeks it developed hydrogen sulfide, when I cleaned it out I thought my wife would divorce me it stunk so bad. Luckily, I only had local snails, crabs, shrimp and worms in there. I think New York beach sand is way too fine.
Paul
(there was no salt water hobby yet) In a couple of weeks it developed hydrogen sulfide, when I cleaned it out I thought my wife would divorce me it stunk so bad. Luckily, I only had local snails, crabs, shrimp and worms in there. I think New York beach sand is way too fine.
Paul
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6539095#post6539095 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by barryhc
I suppose if we starve oxygen, the "mix" of nutrient input is different, and if this reduces Nitrate and oxygen for "receptors, then . . . . . OK, so I guess we need to define "ORGANIC MATERIAL, heh ?
> Barry
Uh Oh. Bomber (I mean Barry) is quoting himself.
BTW....last night I watched something on Discovery called Gross Jobs or something like that.
One of the jobs the guy had to do was go into a (human) waste treatment plant and several times a Hydrogen Sulphide alarm went off and everyone had to run out right away. I'm not kidding, they would leave for 15 minutes and come back. Then the alarm would go off again and they had to retreat ASAP.
One of the jobs the guy had to do was go into a (human) waste treatment plant and several times a Hydrogen Sulphide alarm went off and everyone had to run out right away. I'm not kidding, they would leave for 15 minutes and come back. Then the alarm would go off again and they had to retreat ASAP.
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6539189#post6539189 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by inwall75
Uh Oh. Bomber (I mean Barry) is quoting himself.
How dare you include me in such exalted territory? I already stated that I was worthless, and I stand ( or fall down ) by it ! ! :beer:
> Barry ?
I read "somewhere", that Hydrogen Sulfide was so "noxious" that you would be driven out of the room, before "it" reached levels of toxicity to marine organisms.
It was written by an "expert", that I did, and still partially do respect, as I remember it. Or it might have been Anthony, I'm not sure.
"Grain of salt" ? ! ? ! > Barry :beachbum: :thumbsup:
It was written by an "expert", that I did, and still partially do respect, as I remember it. Or it might have been Anthony, I'm not sure.
"Grain of salt" ? ! ? ! > Barry :beachbum: :thumbsup:
