Durso standpipe?

[IUfan]

Just wanted to ask a few questions and see if anyone had any advice.

I have a 180 with dual overflows, has 2, 1.75" drilled in each overflow.

I'm so torn, my head tells me to go with a herbie overflow, I really want a quiet aquarium, but my gut is telling me not to risk drilling the tank, nor do I want to use a hang on return :S

How loud is a Durso really going to be? is it really that noticeable?

This could decide it pretty easily. with a Herbie, the main full siphon pipe is much lower in the overflow box, does that mean if the pump goes off the water will drain to that level? I don't like the idea of that, so it would push me towards the Durso.

Thanks

 

[Prestigious]

Alrighty, first off, Durso is quiet at low flows and not so quiet at high flows (I say <500GPH in a 1" durso is pretty quiet, much more than that you will hear).

As for Herbie, yes the overflow box will drain when pumps shut off BUT you dont have to have it SUPER DUPER low its just the more room you give yourself between the emergency elevation and the Herbie elevation the easier it is to tune in.

My tank overflow systems sounds identical to yours (2 overflow boxes, 4 total holes)... I am running Herbie with the returns on the back side of the tank. Seeing as how you dont want to do that I would make the suggestion of running 2 full Herbie drains with only 1 emergency drain and 1 return line OR 1 full herbie, 2 emergency, 1 return.

Running two Herby pipes make sure to join them in the middle making a mirror image, then tee off to your valve

 

[uncleof6]

A well designed siphon stand pipe, is identical to a durso. The only difference is the siphon is sealed: No air can enter the pipe. Herbie's publication of this design, was not a completed idea, and was poorly documented, leaving the door open for a million variations, some ok, some not so ok.

The problems associated with dursos, run above the laminar flow capacity, which is rather low, will make you tear your hair out, beat the dog, and generally become an unfriendly person. At the same time, converting a reef-not-ready system (dual overflows) into a siphon system is a bit complex as well.

The best solution is to remove the corner overflows, use plugged bulkheads to block the existing holes, install an "L" shaped shelf across the back of the tank, and drill out the back for a BeanAnimal system, three holes, three standpipes, silent and fail safe.

 

[uncleof6]

Alrighty, first off, Durso is quiet at low flows and not so quiet at high flows (I say <500GPH in a 1" durso is pretty quiet, much more than that you will hear).

Laminar flow rate in a 1" durso is around 50 gph. A 1" durso is pretty much useless, except maybe for a 10 gallon tank. You can't get 500 gph through a 1.5" durso without tearing your hair out... well see above.

As for Herbie, yes the overflow box will drain when pumps shut off BUT you dont have to have it SUPER DUPER low its just the more room you give yourself between the emergency elevation and the Herbie elevation the easier it is to tune in.

See above concerning the design of a siphon standpipe.

My tank overflow systems sounds identical to yours (2 overflow boxes, 4 total holes)... I am running Herbie with the returns on the back side of the tank. Seeing as how you dont want to do that I would make the suggestion of running 2 full Herbie drains with only 1 emergency drain and 1 return line OR 1 full herbie, 2 emergency, 1 return.

Never ever ever, run a siphon system without and equal capacity dry emergency. A single dry emergency for two siphons may or may not be sufficient. Be certain, be safe. 1 Dry emergency of equal or greater capacity per siphon.

Running two Herby pipes make sure to join them in the middle making a mirror image, then tee off to your valve

If wanting to try to run dual herbies, make them independent and discreet. Do not join them and use a common valve. There are too many variables involved, that can cause an imbalance between the overflows resulting in a flood.

1 Herbie, 1 valve, 1 dry emergency. 2 herbie, 2 valve, 2 dry emergency.

Also see the above concerning the design of a siphon stand pipe, and the Herbie system in general.

 

[IUfan]

Omg that sounds like such a headache.

Why would I need to remove the overflow chambers? Couldn't I still use those to cover the 3 holes/pipes? Presumably you'd have 2 bean animal overflows?

Is the bean animal all DIY or is there a kit you can buy?

Normally what are the hights of the 3 holes for the bean animal? Again, wouldn't water drain to the lowest one? Wouldn't that be a lot of water that drains into the sump?

 

[uncleof6]

Omg that sounds like such a headache.

Naw, not a head ache, just encouragement to not buy reef ready tanks.

Why would I need to remove the overflow chambers? Couldn't I still use those to cover the 3 holes/pipes? Presumably you'd have 2 bean animal overflows?

Doing a bean style siphon system in dual overflow tanks, will require one of the overflows to basically be shut down. The siphon and open channel must be in the same body of water, due to the interaction between the two. With the dry emergency in the second overflow, with a return line, there would be no flow in that overflow. Fill it with oolitic aragonite, and you have a mini DSB. Some are trying their hand at bridging the overflows to make them act as one body of water.

Is the bean animal all DIY or is there a kit you can buy?

All DIY. There are no kits, and bean does not have an interest in profiting from the design. However, it would be likely, were it me, to be an issue if someone tried to market the system by itself (in kit form--not part of a complete tank.)

Normally what are the hights of the 3 holes for the bean animal? Again, wouldn't water drain to the lowest one? Wouldn't that be a lot of water that drains into the sump?

http://www.beananimal.com/projects/silent-and-fail-safe-aquarium-overflow-system.aspx

 

[IUfan]

The tank is an oceanic, will the glass on the back be tempered? I just saw that tempered glass can crack when drilling?

So only one overflow will have the bean animal overflow, so only 3 holes to drill? the other will have the return line, so I could still use one of the holes on the bottom for the return? Technically, I could use 1 hole in each overflow for a dual return?

I'm still coming back to the issue with drain off when the pump is turned off? How much water will drain into the sump using this design?

 

[IUfan]

Okay, I'm warming to this idea, and I think I'm going to go this avenue.

I read the bean animal site and it seems like this is going to be the easiest long term solution, so while I'm at it, going to tear the dual overflow out and adopt a semi coast to coast overflow.

I've contact Marc at Melevs reef to get a quote. I was going to make it 48" in length, not going to the full coast to coast, as I don't want to see the L up against the sides of the tank, at 48" that is plenty of surface area to skim, and if the sides are are toothed to it will skim the area that a coast to coast would do also. This eliminates the 'L' shape being up against the glass side.

I have attached a diagram for the plumbing, let me know if you think that looks about right.

Can you tell me how deep the 3 holes need to be cut? and with this overflow box, only the water in the overflow box (not display tank water) will drain down to the lowest pipe, correct?

From what I have read, the tank is not tempered on the sides, so it should be good to drill. I will drill 2 holes on either side of the overflow box to have a dual return.

I was wondering if there are any specialists out there that I can hire to drill the holes for me? maybe not specifically aquarium drilling specialist, but another industry that uses glass drilling that can also do this?

Thanks uncleof6 for your help, it's a pain in the *** and I wish you were wrong, but a little extra effort now will pay off in the long run I think. If a jobs worth doing, its worth doing right as they say.

 

[Prestigious]

Uncle is right in that "BeanAnimal" system is def the best option. I didnt make the suggestion of plugging holes, removing overflows, re -drilling and fabricating an external overflow box because I thought you were looking for a bit simpler solution, and you said that you didnt want external returns so I thought you were limited on "behind the tank" space.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prestigious
Alrighty, first off, Durso is quiet at low flows and not so quiet at high flows (I say <500GPH in a 1" durso is pretty quiet, much more than that you will hear).

Laminar flow rate in a 1" durso is around 50 gph. A 1" durso is pretty much useless, except maybe for a 10 gallon tank. You can't get 500 gph through a 1.5" durso without tearing your hair out... well see above.

I set-up dual 1" durso pipes on my sister's 240 gallon. Pump is pumping about 900GPH and the overflow is quiet as a mouse. No the flow may not be laminar, but you dont need laminar flow to have a quiet non-gurgling overflow. I also ran a similar dual overflow durso setup on my GFs 120 gallon in a living room, again quiet as a mouse.

Dursos are very common in all sized tanks and were the "IT" thing in the hobby before superior Herbie/Bean methods. I would say 90% of fish stores still run dursos, go check theirs out at your local fish store and see how they sound with what flow they are running through them. They arnt "completely useless"

Quote:
My tank overflow systems sounds identical to yours (2 overflow boxes, 4 total holes)... I am running Herbie with the returns on the back side of the tank. Seeing as how you dont want to do that I would make the suggestion of running 2 full Herbie drains with only 1 emergency drain and 1 return line OR 1 full herbie, 2 emergency, 1 return.

Never ever ever, run a siphon system without and equal capacity dry emergency. A single dry emergency for two siphons may or may not be sufficient. Be certain, be safe. 1 Dry emergency of equal or greater capacity per siphon

Personal preference. It would be EXTREMELY unlikely that a Herbie pipe would become 100% blocked, ESPECIALLY on a dual Herbie and ESPECIALLY if your using vertical bulkhead screens (I suggest you do).

Also, you dont need "equal capacity dry emergency" you need equal flow. IF he was running two Herbies at a total of only say 800 GPH, then ONE 1" emergency would be considered quite safe. Imagine running 500GPH through dual 2" Herby's.......there would be absolutely no need for dual 2" emergency pipes lol.

Quote:
Running two Herby pipes make sure to join them in the middle making a mirror image, then tee off to your valve

If wanting to try to run dual herbies, make them independent and discreet. Do not join them and use a common valve. There are too many variables involved, that can cause an imbalance between the overflows resulting in a flood.

Again, all preference. I personally like joining with equal head on each side. It doesnt even have to be perfect, just close. Mine is not perfectly symetrical and I only have about a 0.5" difference in water elevation between the two overflow boxes. When I close/open the valve it raises/lowers the water lvl in each box equally. Also, if one pipe cover gets clogged/blocked it will increase the flow in the other giving you another safety net.

Making them seperate is what makes for more maint/tweaking. Tweaking one will effect the other so you have to keep tweaking both until its where you want it. When your screens get dirty you will have to change it again, when your return pump has flow reduction you do it again, etc.

Again, all opinion and thats my opinion after working with both scenarios.


I will conclude with saying if it were my tank I would do dual Herbie with dual emergency and run returns up the backside of the tank. Bean is a better overflow system but will require a lot more "front-in" effort to get it set up on yours PLUS I personally am limited on behind the tank space. Sorry for the long winded response but I kinda felt like I needed to defend my advice.

GOOD LUCK! :beer:

 

[IUfan]

No I appreciate your input for sure. After reading through the bean animal site, it seems that's a pretty sure bet to get a good overflow systems. There's a lot of advantages with that setup.

The systems is still dry, and will be for a while now, so it's probably worth investing the time to do this. Originally I was totally against this idea and wanted to keep it simple, but I think this is worth doing after giving it some thought.

 

[Prestigious]

No I appreciate your input for sure. After reading through the bean animal site, it seems that's a pretty sure bet to get a good overflow systems. There's a lot of advantages with that setup.

The systems is still dry, and will be for a while now, so it's probably worth investing the time to do this. Originally I was totally against this idea and wanted to keep it simple, but I think this is worth doing after giving it some thought.

Yeah definately worth it! Cant go wrong with Bean. IMO its essentially the exact same thing as Herbie but with an added second pipe that handles water flow fluctuations making it superior to Herbie through requires less maint tweaking.

I periodically have to close my Herbie gate valve slightly every once in awhile as my pump starts to slow down over time and then goes back up after cleaning. Its not that big of a PIA though.... I just wait to here trickling in the overflow boxes (dropped water lvl) and then close valve a hair and go about my day.

 

[uncleof6]

Uncle is right in that "BeanAnimal" system is def the best option. I didnt make the suggestion of plugging holes, removing overflows, re -drilling and fabricating an external overflow box because I thought you were looking for a bit simpler solution, and you said that you didnt want external returns so I thought you were limited on "behind the tank" space.

I set-up dual 1" durso pipes on my sister's 240 gallon. Pump is pumping about 900GPH and the overflow is quiet as a mouse. No the flow may not be laminar, but you dont need laminar flow to have a quiet non-gurgling overflow. I also ran a similar dual overflow durso setup on my GFs 120 gallon in a living room, again quiet as a mouse.

I do believe that these dursos are defying the laws of physics then. Even the inventor of this stand pipe agrees that a 1" Durso is useless, and he did not even understand how the thing worked--by his own admission.

Just as a side note, 900 gph is horribly under powering that 240. And after friction loss, the pump is not even putting that out.

Dursos are very common in all sized tanks and were the "IT" thing in the hobby before superior Herbie/Bean methods. I would say 90% of fish stores still run dursos, go check theirs out at your local fish store and see how they sound with what flow they are running through them. They arnt "completely useless"

LFS is not a good reference. It would not surprise me if they did not know the difference between a Durso and a siphon. For practical purposes, above ~ 350 gph, (for 1.5" pipe) they are useless--unless you can tolerate the noise, bubbles, and instability. The more water you put through them, the more unstable they are. The physics are set in stone, and are not up for debate; it is the anecdote that gets questioned.

Personal preference. It would be EXTREMELY unlikely that a Herbie pipe would become 100% blocked, ESPECIALLY on a dual Herbie and ESPECIALLY if your using vertical bulkhead screens (I suggest you do).

Screens would make the line more likely to get occluded. And it would happen when you are not around to intervene.

Also, you dont need "equal capacity dry emergency" you need equal flow. IF he was running two Herbies at a total of only say 800 GPH, then ONE 1" emergency would be considered quite safe. Imagine running 500GPH through dual 2" Herby's.......there would be absolutely no need for dual 2" emergency pipes lol.

It is easy to mock safety, it is very expensive to repair the flood damage.

Again, all preference. I personally like joining with equal head on each side. It doesnt even have to be perfect, just close. Mine is not perfectly symetrical and I only have about a 0.5" difference in water elevation between the two overflow boxes. When I close/open the valve it raises/lowers the water lvl in each box equally. Also, if one pipe cover gets clogged/blocked it will increase the flow in the other giving you another safety net.

And so the block happens in the line after the join, and you have two plugged siphons, and with your advice, a dry emergency that cannot handle the combined flow. A flood waiting to happen.

Making them seperate is what makes for more maint/tweaking. Tweaking one will effect the other so you have to keep tweaking both until its where you want it. When your screens get dirty you will have to change it again, when your return pump has flow reduction you do it again, etc.

You have to do that with a herbie anyway, periodically. It only adjusts a small amount. The bandwidth is very narrow. This has come up in this forum already, and the herbie could not adjust enough to compensate.

Again, all opinion and thats my opinion after working with both scenarios.

...........

I will conclude with saying if it were my tank I would do dual Herbie with dual emergency and run returns up the backside of the tank. Bean is a better overflow system but will require a lot more "front-in" effort to get it set up on yours PLUS I personally am limited on behind the tank space. Sorry for the long winded response but I kinda felt like I needed to defend my advice.

And all your advice just went out the window. To be honest and direct, if you have to defend the advice, then there is something very questionable about it. What is that? The second paragraph. 900 gph split between to 1" Dursos, with no problems--in defiance of the Physics that govern how air assisted stand pipes operate.

GOOD LUCK! :beer:

 

[IUfan]

Come on guys, lets stay on track, I wasn't trying to start a debate here, there's plenty of those threads already.

I think I'm going to go to the Beananimal, and I was trying to find some info on the questions I had. Anyone have an input on the questions I have?

 

[uncleof6]

Come on guys, lets stay on track, I wasn't trying to start a debate here, there's plenty of those threads already.

I think I'm going to go to the Beananimal, and I was trying to find some info on the questions I had. Anyone have an input on the questions I have?

Don't worry, there is not a debate This is about physics, for the most part, and physics are not up for debate.

 

[Prestigious]

Quote:
I will conclude with saying if it were my tank I would do dual Herbie with dual emergency and run returns up the backside of the tank. Bean is a better overflow system but will require a lot more "front-in" effort to get it set up on yours PLUS I personally am limited on behind the tank space. Sorry for the long winded response but I kinda felt like I needed to defend my advice.

And all your advice just went out the window. To be honest and direct, if you have to defend the advice, then there is something very questionable about it. What is that? The second paragraph. 900 gph split between to 1" Dursos, with no problems--in defiance of the Physics that govern how air assisted stand pipes operate.

Why are are you being so rude... this is why I try not to say too much on here...

I had to defend the advice because you attacked it....
It is a durso standpipe for a 1.0" bulkhead... the actual standpipe itself is probably 1.25" or 1.5"(same scenario as IUfan). WORKS GREAT. I guess all us hillbilly durso users are defying physics. Heck you could flow about 800-1000 GPH through it but it will make a good bit of noise.

Just as a side note, 900 gph is horribly under powering that 240. And after friction loss, the pump is not even putting that out.

A bit off topic...... but when did we start debating the recommended flow rate through a sump/refugium? 4x turnover rate is plenty for my sister's FOWLR. I want the detritus to settle out so I can remove it. You gain almost nothing from a higher turnover rate other than a higher elec. bill.

The 900GPH is "actual" not "theoretical". By friction loss I think you meant head loss... friction loss is almost negligible. I make my living sizing pumps for water supply.

Even the inventor of this stand pipe agrees that a 1" Durso is useless

Durso for 1" bulkhead is his biggest seller. Every tank I have seen at fish store is drilled for 1" bulkheads and comes with the durso standpipes.

The more water you put through them, the more unstable they are. The physics are set in stone, and are not up for debate; it is the anecdote that gets questioned.

I agree. Just telling the author of the thread that my pipes are quiet enough. Yes they make noise... but its not intollerable, crashing & gurgling and they work. I dont claim to know the physics behind a durso...only that mine works (no not perfectly silent)

And so the block happens in the line after the join, and you have two plugged siphons, and with your advice, a dry emergency that cannot handle the combined flow. A flood waiting to happen.

 

[uncleof6]

Prestigious,

This needs to be dropped, so the thread can go back on track. The physics are what they are, and they cannot be beat. Calling me rude, rather than what I am--which is very direct, is not helping much either. If you find me rude, place me on ignore, and you will no longer have to read my posts, and I can do the same.

Happy Reefing.

 

[Prestigious]

IUFan, are you going to do an internal or external box?

 

[uncleof6]

Okay, I'm warming to this idea, and I think I'm going to go this avenue.

I read the bean animal site and it seems like this is going to be the easiest long term solution, so while I'm at it, going to tear the dual overflow out and adopt a semi coast to coast overflow.

Good plan. A bit of work, but the end result is well worth the effort.

I've contact Marc at Melevs reef to get a quote. I was going to make it 48" in length, not going to the full coast to coast, as I don't want to see the L up against the sides of the tank, at 48" that is plenty of surface area to skim, and if the sides are are toothed to it will skim the area that a coast to coast would do also. This eliminates the 'L' shape being up against the glass side.

48" will probably be ok, but it depends on the flow rate. The overflow calc, though off, can give you a rough estimate of the length you need. It needs to be noted that teeth in the weir, cut the linear length often by 2/3, and are not recommended. You want to use a flat top weir, with no teeth. It is more efficient, and quieter. (the teeth channel the flow, and that creates noise, and they restrict the flow, raising the water level higher, and reducing skimming efficiency.

I have attached a diagram for the plumbing, let me know if you think that looks about right.

The three holes in the back of the tank should all be at the same level. (Will get to that below.)

Also, it would be better flow wise, to use a single return line. Friction loss is not insignificant, and can cause the need for a larger pump to do the same amount of work. The extra plumbing adds friction loss, especially running the flow into a tee. A single line up over the top is the most efficient means, and using the power heads for what they are for: dispersion.

I you really must, run two return lines, do not reduce the size, this will help keep the friction loss to a minimum.

Often friction loss can cut your flow by 300 gph or more, in some cases turn a 14' static lift, into 42' of dynamic head. That is not insignificant. depending on the plumbing size, and how well the pump handles the additional head pressure along with the additional velocity head.

Can you tell me how deep the 3 holes need to be cut? and with this overflow box, only the water in the overflow box (not display tank water) will drain down to the lowest pipe, correct?

The holes need to be 1 x the hole diameter down from the top edge of the glass, to the top edge of the hole. The holes also need to be a bit lower than that, to account for the water drop over the weir, and the distance from the water level to the center of the hole. From the top edge of the glass to the hole center line, the minimum is 2.75". More (by a half inch or so) is better as it brings the upturned elbow down below the top edge of the weir. That is for a 1" bulkhead, 1.75" hole. I have gone over this several times in the later part of bean's thread, and several others within the last week or so.

From what I have read, the tank is not tempered on the sides, so it should be good to drill. I will drill 2 holes on either side of the overflow box to have a dual return.

See above, for efficiency a single return line is better. And let the power heads do their job. You can't get away from them, often even if you use a closed loop.

I was wondering if there are any specialists out there that I can hire to drill the holes for me? maybe not specifically aquarium drilling specialist, but another industry that uses glass drilling that can also do this?

Local glass shop can punch the holes. If you are looking for high end, a glass fabrication (that make shower doors, table tops etc.) shop may have a Techni Waterjet.

Thanks uncleof6 for your help, it's a pain in the *** and I wish you were wrong, but a little extra effort now will pay off in the long run I think. If a jobs worth doing, its worth doing right as they say.

You are welcome, sorry for the side track. It happens sometimes.

 

[IUfan]

........Okay

So where were we.

I'm going to tear out the overflows in there, anything I should be aware of here, just going to exacto knife down the silicon and pull out, then scrape any excess silicone off.

Got the bulkheads and plugs for the bottom.

Got a quote from Melevs for an overflow box.

Now just need to know what size holes do you reccomend for the 3 overflows, and also what size for return?

And, placement of the holes. Think 12" apart length ways, can the 2 wet siphons be put on either side and emergency be placed in middle like on the drawing?

Lastly, is there any where I can try that drills glass, not comfortable doing it myself?

 

[uncleof6]

We cross posted IUfan ^^^^^^^^^