Eat organic food to help save reefs!

[Robka]

4 years ago (after a Cancer scare) & following doctors advice, my wife and I began to take a serious look at the food we put in our bodies. I am a certified personal trainer and have been health conscious for a long time, but like many, had no clue about the effect that petroleum based chemicals had on the food we, eat, the water we drink & the environment around us. My wife and I just returned from a vacation in Costa Rica and we were able to witness first hand evidence of how chemicals from banana plantations have destroyed the majority of reefs in that area. It makes me sick to my stomach when I see people choose to ignore issues like this to save a couple of bucks. For example; at my grocery store organic bananas are .99 cents a pound compared to .79 cents a pound for chemically raised bananas. I know that anyone on this forum in the first place, can definitely afford to pay .20 cents more for their bananas, so why are more people not making that choice?

 

[Robka]

I kind of figured this wouldn't be a popular thread, as many don't want to change the way they live (especially in today's economy) or worry about how their everyday lives affect the world around them, but there has to be others in this hobby that care enough to wonder why more people don't take steps to help the health of our planet (not to mention the health of their own families)???

 

[scadsobees]

Were you able to view an organic banana plantation while there and how it differed from the non-organic?

I'm guessing at only $.20/lb there isn't a whole lot of difference in farming practice, other than how they label them. There isn't a whole lot of teeth to the organic labeling, especially imported food. Besides, organic doesn't address land use, spreading organic cow-poop over the plantations as fertilizer would be just as damaging as using chemicals.

Rick

 

[Robka]

Were you able to view an organic banana plantation while there and how it differed from the non-organic?

I'm guessing at only $.20/lb there isn't a whole lot of difference in farming practice, other than how they label them. There isn't a whole lot of teeth to the organic labeling, especially imported food. Besides, organic doesn't address land use, spreading organic cow-poop over the plantations as fertilizer would be just as damaging as using chemicals.

Rick

So you don't think there is any merit to using natural fertilizers over petroleum based?

My wife and I were not able to view the actually plantations, just the damage done by them. Maybe it is the scale (size) of such farming that is the major damaging fact and if so shouldn't we be eating foods grown on smaller farms that are sustainably managed and thus not needing large amounts of petroleum based products?

 

[KafudaFish]

One could argue that a large scale farm with modern equipment would be more efficient and use less resources than a small scale farm.

 

[scadsobees]

So you don't think there is any merit to using natural fertilizers over petroleum based?

Yes and no. I don't use much fertilizer on my garden, instead mulching leaves and so on. But in a large scale farm? You'd need tons and tons of natural fertilizer to do what a much smaller amount of synthetic fertilizer would do. And using that much more would cause more negative runoff. Results wouldn't be any better.

My wife and I were not able to view the actually plantations, just the damage done by them. Maybe it is the scale (size) of such farming that is the major damaging fact and if so shouldn't we be eating foods grown on smaller farms that are sustainably managed and thus not needing large amounts of petroleum based products?

Too often "organic" is more of a marketing tool. Whatever they are putting on the plantations is value-added - if it weren't used, some other method would be used. That other method would likely be much more labor intensive, creating a price difference that I believe would be more than $.20.

I think that "organic" becomes a panacea to chemicals and environmental, and likely has far far less benefits than the buyer realizes. I'm a beekeeper, and have looked into organic labeling, and the health benefits of organic honey versus regular would basically be zero, but the price that people would be willing to pay? Triple.


Without the scale, we could never feed all the people.

 

[Robka]

One could argue that a large scale farm with modern equipment would be more efficient and use less resources than a small scale farm.

What points would that argument use? I live in the heart of large scale farming and have seen the damage it has caused. Nebraska sits on top of the largest amount of freshwater in the continental United States (the Ogallala Aquifer) and it is now the most polluted aquifer do to farming practices used by mass producing corn, soybeans, etc. The "modern equipment" used in farming take petroleum to use, then they spray petroleum based fertilizers, then they spray petroleum based pesticides. The soil in Nebraska has been stripped of it's natural qualities & is nothing more than a sponge waiting for the next chemical to be dumped on them.

 

[scadsobees]

Regardless, my point is that paying $.20/lb more for a pound of bananas will do nothing for Costa Rica's reefs. All they'd do is put a different label on the bananas and earn more for them. And even if they did change their practice to be more "organic", they would still be doing the same damage, since the organic label deals more with how the food is treated and less with how the surrounding area is treated.

So yeah, the best solution is to stop buying bananas. But then their economy collapses, rampant unemployment rules, and they decimate the reefs anyway looking for food.

Or maybe somebody down there needs to recognize the damage to the reefs and therefore to their tourism, and then encourage the farmers to tweak their farming practices to the point where the damage is minimized but the farms are still profitable.

Rick

 

[Robka]

Yes and no. I don't use much fertilizer on my garden, instead mulching leaves and so on. But in a large scale farm? You'd need tons and tons of natural fertilizer to do what a much smaller amount of synthetic fertilizer would do. And using that much more would cause more negative runoff. Results wouldn't be any better.



Too often "organic" is more of a marketing tool. Whatever they are putting on the plantations is value-added - if it weren't used, some other method would be used. That other method would likely be much more labor intensive, creating a price difference that I believe would be more than $.20.

I think that "organic" becomes a panacea to chemicals and environmental, and likely has far far less benefits than the buyer realizes. I'm a beekeeper, and have looked into organic labeling, and the health benefits of organic honey versus regular would basically be zero, but the price that people would be willing to pay? Triple.


Without the scale, we could never feed all the people.

First of all, I understand that just because it is labeled "organic" we are still relying on the USDA to uphold those standards, but that being said, what do think the standards of food not labeled organic are? How about we call it REAL food vs. CHEMICAL food?


Second, what people can't we feed? I find it strange that the United States seems like one of the only countries in which many of the lowest income families are obese.

 

[KafudaFish]

What points would that argument use? I live in the heart of large scale farming and have seen the damage it has caused. Nebraska sits on top of the largest amount of freshwater in the continental United States (the Ogallala Aquifer) and it is now the most polluted aquifer do to farming practices used by mass producing corn, soybeans, etc. The "modern equipment" used in farming take petroleum to use, then they spray petroleum based fertilizers, then they spray petroleum based pesticides. The soil in Nebraska has been stripped of it's natural qualities & is nothing more than a sponge waiting for the next chemical to be dumped on them.

Simple. Farmers = business men and women = look at the bottom line.

With modern equipment a farmer can use less product per area. I will bet that many of those tractors you see are equiped with Trimble GPS units that map out the path the farmer takes along with recording the amount of material used per area.

Just because someone has a small farm does not mean that he or she is more careful than someone with a larger one.

As far as reefs go do you think that it is important if the N/P and the sediment that enters the ocean comes from a piece of cow poop or it was made in a factory?

Just asking.

 

[scadsobees]

First of all, I understand that just because it is labeled "organic" we are still relying on the USDA to uphold those standards, but that being said, what do think the standards of food not labeled organic are? How about we call it REAL food vs. CHEMICAL food?

Same tests either way - they test for certain levels of certain chemicals incoming, I assume. We need to rely on Costa Rica's organic standards and testing since the USDA can't inspect all oversea farms. And I wouldn't trust Costa Rica's standards and inspections, since they're not eating the stuff- they're shipping it over here.

Second, what people can't we feed? I find it strange that the United States seems like one of the only countries in which many of the lowest income families are obese.

Ok, got me there...it isn't about feeding people, it is about clean energy and biofuels :sad2:.. not the bananas specifically, but food production in general.

I agree with you in principle - the reality is that scale changes pollution and the best way to farm is using all the tools at our disposal wisely. 1000 banana farms (however many) will change things, they need to find out how to keep the 1000 banana farms and minimize the imact.

 

[Robka]

Regardless, my point is that paying $.20/lb more for a pound of bananas will do nothing for Costa Rica's reefs. All they'd do is put a different label on the bananas and earn more for them.

Organic food is more expensive mainly due to crop rotation needed (along with other factors) to replace vitals nutrients in the ground normally done with petroleum based fertilizers. If you really take a look at what goes into organic farming, then the added costs are justified, but if more demanded REAL food and stopped paying for petroleum food, then the price would go down. Saying it is nothing more than a labeling scam to charge more for food is not accurate.

 

[Robka]

Regardless, my point is that paying $.20/lb more for a pound of bananas will do nothing for Costa Rica's reefs. All they'd do is put a different label on the bananas and earn more for them.

Organic food is more expensive mainly due to crop rotation needed (along with other factors) to replace vital nutrients in the ground normally done with petroleum based fertilizers. If you really take a look at what goes into organic farming, then the added costs are justified, but if more demanded REAL food and stopped paying for petroleum food, then the price would go down. Saying it is nothing more than a labeling scam to charge more for food is not accurate.

 

[Robka]

Simple. Farmers = business men and women = look at the bottom line.


Just because someone has a small farm does not mean that he or she is more careful than someone with a larger one.

Of course small doesn't guarantee better, but in my experience here in the midwest is the majority of large farms are using chemicals and the majority of small farms are not using chemicals. These are the farms supplying local farmers markets.

 

[starshrike]

I buy local & organic when it is reasonable, 90% of my produce comes from the farmers market year round. I do still shop at the grocery stores, and grow seasonal (ie mostly summer) crops. Reduce meat consumption, buy from local and/or CSA. Organic may not be organic as there have been MANY cases of contaimination due to air/evaporation/rain travel from larger farms that still use chemical pesticides and fertilizers. Getting certified organic may be of less benefit than a small family farm that is pesticide free, due to the costs for applying for the certification. If you do not want to buy organic which is fine by me, at least try to get pesticide free of the dirty dozen (look this up). These are foods that are heavily sprayed with pesticides/fungicides/who knows whats.

On another note, I read somewhere that the best yield ($/acre) farms are not small ones or large, but those of moderate size that are manageable and utilize some scaled down version of crop rotation. These are still generally family run and many of them are more concious of how they affect their surroundings and long term sustainability.

Local saves a ton more petroleum than organic from 1000's of miles away. I also buy in season and rarely eat imported tropical fruits, though they are some of my favorites. I refuse to be a vegetarian, as these teeth of mine are of an omnivore!

I wouldn't worry just about the reefs. Rainforest destruction (one of our best CO2 filters) for meat, coffee, and other foods are of concern. At least the depletion rate is significantly slower than it was 10 years ago.

 

[gon08]

I'm a little confused.... which is it you're really concerned about? is it the reefs? peoples health? Farming? or just hate petroleum over all?

 

[gon08]

BTW.... Plants need Nitrogen, Phosphorus, and Potassium to thrive regardless the source whether organic or synthetic. Run off is run off and doesn't discriminate either way. Point is the nutrients will make it to the reefs regardless what they're made from.

 

[jeff@zina.com]

So you don't think there is any merit to using natural fertilizers over petroleum based?

First of all, what makes petroleum inorganic? It is, after all, a natural organic product. (Okay, I'll lay off the whole range of what defines "organic", this isn't the palce for that argument.)

But that's not even the issue. The issue is primarily over-fertilization and run-off. With the exception of copper and heavy metal issues, excess fertilizer runoff is the major issue affecting aquatic sealife.

There are, naturally, site-specific issues all over the world. But me paying 20 cents extra for organic bananas isn't going to solve the issue with a specific Costa Rican reef area.

Jeff

 

[Robka]

I'm a little confused.... which is it you're really concerned about? is it the reefs? peoples health? Farming? or just hate petroleum over all?

My answer is simple to those questions;

d) ALL OF THE ABOVE

but obviously the reef safety is driving this thread.

 

[Robka]

I buy local & organic when it is reasonable, 90% of my produce comes from the farmers market year round. I do still shop at the grocery stores, and grow seasonal (ie mostly summer) crops. Reduce meat consumption, buy from local and/or CSA. Organic may not be organic as there have been MANY cases of contaimination due to air/evaporation/rain travel from larger farms that still use chemical pesticides and fertilizers. Getting certified organic may be of less benefit than a small family farm that is pesticide free, due to the costs for applying for the certification. If you do not want to buy organic which is fine by me, at least try to get pesticide free of the dirty dozen (look this up). These are foods that are heavily sprayed with pesticides/fungicides/who knows whats.

On another note, I read somewhere that the best yield ($/acre) farms are not small ones or large, but those of moderate size that are manageable and utilize some scaled down version of crop rotation. These are still generally family run and many of them are more concious of how they affect their surroundings and long term sustainability.

Local saves a ton more petroleum than organic from 1000's of miles away. I also buy in season and rarely eat imported tropical fruits, though they are some of my favorites. I refuse to be a vegetarian, as these teeth of mine are of an omnivore!

I wouldn't worry just about the reefs. Rainforest destruction (one of our best CO2 filters) for meat, coffee, and other foods are of concern. At least the depletion rate is significantly slower than it was 10 years ago.

Thank you for your comment. It' nice to know that my family isn't the only one on this forum that is willing to spend the extra money to make a statement that we do not want chemicals in our food, our land, and especially our oceans. Trust me I know it is not easy. My entire house is cleaned with a combination of vinegar, steam, and UV sterilization. The only chemicals in my house are a couple for my fish tanks and a couple in my garage (oil & lubricants) for my vehicles. Most US citizens would rather spend one minute spraying a harsh chemical like Tilex in the shower and return in 10 minutes to wipe the hard water stains away. Then 15-20 minutes with a steam cleaner and some good ole fashion elbow grease. I do realize that having a wife who is a successful doctor with her own practice has allowed us the resources to buy good natural food, but we still make sacrifices constantly. We live in a smaller home then most our friends. I grow my own chemical free garden (which watered with rain water) I have a Vermiculture to compost waist and then the worms provide me with fish food, bait, and good as "gold" worm poop that I use as a natural pesticide & fertilizer. So I gave up my income as a financial adviser in order to make sure my house was chemical free while feeding my wife incredible meals to make sure her evenings are wonderful & completely free of stress.:love2: My wish for EVERYONE on this forum is that we try to live a life that is respectful to this planet and it's future inhabitants and in turn feed our families good chemical free food & water.:fish1: