Eat organic food to help save reefs!

[Sharpie_]

Just look at your thread title, simply put: eating organic food will not save the reefs. Farmers changing their practices, and regulations being enforced is what needs to happen. By buying orgaqnic we do not enforce any of this, organic farmers effectively use the same essential nutrients (NPK) but deliver them via different methods. Run-off is run-off is run-off, the nutrients are there no matter where they were gathered from. The difference being, with a manufactured product - dosing can be exact, otherwise, guestimating can be risky. I don't advocate buying pesticide laden foods, I do however believe that when used responsibly and concienciouly - man made fertilizers are safe and effective.

Slightly unrelated - I know of a woman who used to go to the factory farms (chicken/eggs) and buy eggs every morning. She would bring them to the farmers market and sell them for 3x what she was paying, she did get banned from the market when found out though.

 

[MCary]

Unfortuanately Robka, you have chosen a lifestyle based on emotional rather than fact based analysis. An ojective look at organic food without a preconceptual bias would be very eye opening for you.

First, there is no evidence that organic food is any more healthy than its counterparts. On the contrary, organic foods expose you to more bacterial and viral pathogens.

Organic foods are of lower quality, smaller in size, and less in yield. If the entire world were to switch to organic foods, 1.5 billion people would starve to death.

Phosphates and Nitrogen washed into the ocean from agriculture have the same effect no matter where they come from, organic or inorganic fertilyzers.

Pesticides used on food products are safe for human consumption. The safest of all being DDT which was banned worldwide due to bad science and poor publicity. It is estimated that the DDT ban killed 60 million people due to the recurrance of Black Water Fever, AKA, Plasmodium falciparem malaria.

I am under no dilusions that you will believe me. I am merely presenting some facts for others to consider should they want a base of understanding to build on through their own research.

 

[starshrike]

I do not feel the need to convince people to buy organic. It ultimately is their choice! I understand the benefits/negatives both ways. Give people the facts from both sides (and hopefully from an unbiased 3rd party), let them make the choice.

MCary: Agreeably, most organic produce the yields are lower and fruit is not of uniform shape (nor always the most visually appealing) but many of the "heirloom" and "organic" varieties never made it to the conventional market.. the short is they DO NOT TRAVEL/PACK/NOT ECONOMICALLY FEASIBLE to grow in large quantities. However, we still need the diversity of food, otherwise we'll really just be eating corn/soy/wheat by-products soon. I also do not agree with "lower quality" as that is too general.

For commercial foods transport and storage of produce usually yields in a decline in nutritional value, flavor, as well as appearance. I also don't care for the waxy coatings on fruit to make it appear better, theres no nutrition in that.

DDT ban killing millions is a partial hoax. While it did work for awhile, there were mosquitos developing resistance, much like we have drug resistant diseases increasing.
http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2005/02/ddt3.php

But honestly, we do not know what the long term outcome would be of what is now commonly grown methods used for yield increase, diesese resistance compared to "traditional" organic methods. Even if labeled safe for food consumption, I do not neccesarily trust the unknown long term effects of pesticides/additives/hormones/etc. I also do not care for the lines and lines of "green products" out there as many of them are less effective than things like vinegar or conventional bleach.

 

[MCary]

Not to hijack the post, just a clip from your website star

"What makes DDT so attractive is that it is much cheaper than the commonly used pyrethroid insecticides and it is very effective. Moreover, mosquito resistance to DDT has not yet been reported, whereas it is rapidly spreading for pyrethroids. "

 

[starshrike]

Look up other sources as well. I only posted a link to one, didn't really want to change the course of the thread. As I said before, give both sides/perspectives, let each come to their conclusion. More use of pyrethroids as they are not commonly banned likely made the resistance develop faster. Pyrethroids were also developed under the guise to mimic a natural insecticide from a flower, and is toxic to fish. It's good and bad. It's the matter of what pros "outweigh" the cons - I am sure if you asked 1000 people you'd get a wide range of responses.

 

[Robka]

Just look at your thread title, simply put: eating organic food will not save the reefs. Farmers changing their practices, and regulations being enforced is what needs to happen. By buying orgaqnic we do not enforce any of this, organic farmers effectively use the same essential nutrients (NPK) but deliver them via different methods. Run-off is run-off is run-off, the nutrients are there no matter where they were gathered from. The difference being, with a manufactured product - dosing can be exact, otherwise, guestimating can be risky. I don't advocate buying pesticide laden foods, I do however believe that when used responsibly and concienciouly - man made fertilizers are safe and effective.

Slightly unrelated - I know of a woman who used to go to the factory farms (chicken/eggs) and buy eggs every morning. She would bring them to the farmers market and sell them for 3x what she was paying, she did get banned from the market when found out though.

Unfortuanately Robka, you have chosen a lifestyle based on emotional rather than fact based analysis. An ojective look at organic food without a preconceptual bias would be very eye opening for you.

First, there is no evidence that organic food is any more healthy than its counterparts. On the contrary, organic foods expose you to more bacterial and viral pathogens.

Organic foods are of lower quality, smaller in size, and less in yield. If the entire world were to switch to organic foods, 1.5 billion people would starve to death.

Phosphates and Nitrogen washed into the ocean from agriculture have the same effect no matter where they come from, organic or inorganic fertilyzers.

Pesticides used on food products are safe for human consumption. The safest of all being DDT which was banned worldwide due to bad science and poor publicity. It is estimated that the DDT ban killed 60 million people due to the recurrance of Black Water Fever, AKA, Plasmodium falciparem malaria.

I am under no dilusions that you will believe me. I am merely presenting some facts for others to consider should they want a base of understanding to build on through their own research.

Not to hijack the post, just a clip from your website star

"What makes DDT so attractive is that it is much cheaper than the commonly used pyrethroid insecticides and it is very effective. Moreover, mosquito resistance to DDT has not yet been reported, whereas it is rapidly spreading for pyrethroids. "

Most of the responses to this thread are exactly what I expected to hear:thumbdown I find it very interesting that someone who's only agenda is the health of this planet and the creatures on it (me) is attacked for supporting the reduction of cancer causing chemicals on this earth. If those who think organic is a fraud and Monsanto & other chemical companies have their best interest in mind, would take the time to look at the NON-BIAS scientific studies that are out there (watch "Bag it", "Tapped", etc.), then they might change their tune. Why did Toys R us get rid of BPA plastic in the baby bottles, etc. even though the bribed EPA officials say it is perfectly fine? Why did the American Bald Eagle(amongst others) make a come back when DDT was banned? The majority of developed countries have a policy that a chemical is guilty until it is proven safe, but in the USA a chemical is innocent until it is proven guilty and the damage is done. Why is that? I don't want anyone to think to long about this so I will give you the answer.........MONEY $$$$$ Why did my doctor, (after a cancer scare) tell me that I should eat chemical free "organic" food & limit my exposure to plastics? I guess my doctor is just a member of the organic conspiracy:hmm3: I'm pretty sure that anyone that responds to this will not do any suggested research before answering so I guess corporate America has done an excellent job brainwashing the masses

 

[Robka]

P.S. Right about now is when RC members close the thread, saying that it is too political, but I would challenge them to let it play out. As long as you have a forum called "Responsible Reefkeeping" you can't keep out all politics, so as long as we keep it clean please allow this discussion.

Have a great day

 

[scadsobees]

Most of us were addressing the organic link to the reef as you titled your very own thread. And the premise that we can save a reef by spending a little more money on bananas.

You seem intent on addressing everything except for that.:hmm5:

 

[movado]

I'm all for the idea of organic foods. But, without real regulations, standard, and inspections, it's just a label that really anyone can use. There's no real definition of what an "organic" food is. To me organic just means anything that contains carbon, whether natural or synthetic.

Also, whether something is natural or synthetic doesn't really matter to me. There are tons of naturally produced items that are unhealthy and/or dangerous to the environment. For example, chicken manure is a natural fertilizer that has caused all sorts of problems in the Chesapeake Bay with its runoff. my point is just beacause something is natural or "organic" doesn't mean it's good for us or the environment.

 

[gon08]

For example, chicken manure is a natural fertilizer that has caused all sorts of problems in the Chesapeake Bay with its runoff. my point is just beacause something is natural or "organic" doesn't mean it's good for us or the environment.

My point exactly. Nutrients in run off are nutrients no matter what their source is.

On a greater scale... I kind of find it comical to even fathom that humans can destroy the earth. The earth will change as it has time and time again since its creation and we as well as other creatures will disappear or change from the forms in which we know them. To me the whole green movement is more a self preservation movement rather than a save the earth movement. This doesn't mean Im for dumping all kinds of crap into the ocean but we are nothing in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Masterofnonsense]

Most of the responses to this thread are exactly what I expected to hear:thumbdown I find it very interesting that someone who's only agenda is the health of this planet and the creatures on it (me) is attacked for supporting the reduction of cancer causing chemicals on this earth. If those who think organic is a fraud and Monsanto & other chemical companies have their best interest in mind, would take the time to look at the NON-BIAS scientific studies that are out there (watch "Bag it", "Tapped", etc.), then they might change their tune. Why did Toys R us get rid of BPA plastic in the baby bottles, etc. even though the bribed EPA officials say it is perfectly fine? Why did the American Bald Eagle(amongst others) make a come back when DDT was banned? The majority of developed countries have a policy that a chemical is guilty until it is proven safe, but in the USA a chemical is innocent until it is proven guilty and the damage is done. Why is that? I don't want anyone to think to long about this so I will give you the answer.........MONEY $$$$$ Why did my doctor, (after a cancer scare) tell me that I should eat chemical free "organic" food & limit my exposure to plastics? I guess my doctor is just a member of the organic conspiracy:hmm3: I'm pretty sure that anyone that responds to this will not do any suggested research before answering so I guess corporate America has done an excellent job brainwashing the masses

Are you interested in a discussion, or did you just want people to agree with you? Nobody has attacked you, only tried to point out what an enormous leap of of logic it is that eating organic food directly correlates to saving the reefs.

 

[gon08]

I don't want anyone to think to long about this so I will give you the answer.........MONEY $$$$$ Why did my doctor, (after a cancer scare) tell me that I should eat chemical free "organic" food & limit my exposure to plastics? I guess my doctor is just a member of the organic conspiracy:hmm3: I'm pretty sure that anyone that responds to this will not do any suggested research before answering so I guess corporate America has done an excellent job brainwashing the masses

The same can be said about the GREEN movement. It is money driven and there are many people racking in the big big bucks (Al Gore) in the name of saving the earth. It seems every decade they come up with a new boogie man to scare the people to buy into the whole "We're killing the earth" hysteria. In the 80's they banned aerosol because hair spray and A/C freon was eating a hole in the ozone layer which no one really new if in fact it was a hole, how big it was to begin with, or if it was always there from the very beginning. Now it's co2 warming the earth because in the past all the SUV's the dinosaurs drove had the same effect.

As for your doctor..... he's entitled to his opinion and I can find you doctors that would tell you that none of those things are responsible for cancer. My dad passed away last May from bladder cancer and I can tell you plastic bottles had nothing to do with it. Brain washing works both ways!

 

[TriValleyReefer]

A lot of interesting opinions. As a Certified Nutritionist - I will say that the most important practice you can institute in your life, is to become your own advocate. Read and study and listen and decide for yourself what is real and what is hype. Just like you should do in the world of fish.

 

[Robka]

I'm all for the idea of organic foods. But, without real regulations, standard, and inspections, it's just a label that really anyone can use. There's no real definition of what an "organic" food is. To me organic just means anything that contains carbon, whether natural or synthetic.

Also, whether something is natural or synthetic doesn't really matter to me. There are tons of naturally produced items that are unhealthy and/or dangerous to the environment. For example, chicken manure is a natural fertilizer that has caused all sorts of problems in the Chesapeake Bay with its runoff. my point is just beacause something is natural or "organic" doesn't mean it's good for us or the environment.

Since I'm not a scientist I base my opinion on this; If I feel comfortable rubbing it on my body and ingesting it in my mouth then I will apply it on my garden. Worm poop = yes ammonium = no

I wouldn't spray "Round Up" on my skin so I do not use it on my lawn or garden. I guess I'm crazy like that:wildone:

 

[Robka]

The same can be said about the GREEN movement. It is money driven and there are many people racking in the big big bucks (Al Gore) in the name of saving the earth. It seems every decade they come up with a new boogie man to scare the people to buy into the whole "We're killing the earth" hysteria. In the 80's they banned aerosol because hair spray and A/C freon was eating a hole in the ozone layer which no one really new if in fact it was a hole, how big it was to begin with, or if it was always there from the very beginning. Now it's co2 warming the earth because in the past all the SUV's the dinosaurs drove had the same effect.

As for your doctor..... he's entitled to his opinion and I can find you doctors that would tell you that none of those things are responsible for cancer. My dad passed away last May from bladder cancer and I can tell you plastic bottles had nothing to do with it. Brain washing works both ways!

I knew doctors like that as well (old school) most doctors and nurses use to smoke cigarettes as well:hmm3: I guess my doctor thinks there is an actual scientific cause to the amazing increasing disease and cancer rates in this country.:eek2:

 

[gon08]

Since I'm not a scientist I base my opinion on this; If I feel comfortable rubbing it on my body and ingesting it in my mouth then I will apply it on my garden. Worm poop = yes ammonium = no

I wouldn't spray "Round Up" on my skin so I do not use it on my lawn or garden. I guess I'm crazy like that:wildone:

I am a landscape contractor and rely heavily on round up. Round up does nothing to the ground. It is taken in by the foliage of the target plant killing it.
Besides your analogy doesn't make any sense. Would you put manure on your skin? If you did you'd be full of crap :lolspin: pardon the pun. Sorry couldn't help myself on that one :beer:

 

[organism]

The same can be said about the GREEN movement. It is money driven and there are many people racking in the big big bucks (Al Gore) in the name of saving the earth. It seems every decade they come up with a new boogie man to scare the people to buy into the whole "We're killing the earth" hysteria.

Don't forget the ice age that was coming in the 70's if we didn't change our ways, and if you didn't believe the multibillion dollar environmentalist propaganda machine that said we needed to stop polluting to avert an ice age then you were a mindless drone controlled by the big corporations. Same thing now only with warming.

Since I'm not a scientist I base my opinion on this; If I feel comfortable rubbing it on my body and ingesting it in my mouth then I will apply it on my garden. Worm poop = yes ammonium = no

I wouldn't spray "Round Up" on my skin so I do not use it on my lawn or garden. I guess I'm crazy like that:wildone:

That's some quality hyperbole right there

Your reef tank runs on synthetic aquarium salts btw. Organic does not always equal good, more often than not it's just a marketing term to con people into buying overpriced bs.

In any case, going organic does not and will never prevent damage to reefs, because organic or not developing countries rely on deforestation for farmland to grow on as well as construction, which causes runoff and kills reefs. It's a really elitist argument to say that the rest of the world should adapt to one's particular idea about what being healthy means regardless of the consequences, or that they should focus on protecting one particular resource we care about even if their people starve to death.

 

[Robka]

I am a landscape contractor and rely heavily on round up. Round up does nothing to the ground. It is taken in by the foliage of the target plant killing it.
Besides your analogy doesn't make any sense. Would you put manure on your skin? If you did you'd be full of crap :lolspin: pardon the pun. Sorry couldn't help myself on that one :beer:

I use worm poop for fertilizer & yes I feel comfortable applying it to my skin. DO YOU feel comfortable applying "Round Up"to your skin? If so we obviously have a huge gap between us and our understanding of warning labels.:eek2:

 

[scadsobees]

Would you put worm poop in your reef tank?

It is the nutrients killing the reef you started out with, regardless of the source.

 

[Robka]

Don't forget the ice age that was coming in the 70's if we didn't change our ways, and if you didn't believe the multibillion dollar environmentalist propaganda machine that said we needed to stop polluting to avert an ice age then you were a mindless drone controlled by the big corporations. Same thing now only with warming.



That's some quality hyperbole right there

Your reef tank runs on synthetic aquarium salts btw. Organic does not always equal good, more often than not it's just a marketing term to con people into buying overpriced bs.

In any case, going organic does not and will never prevent damage to reefs, because organic or not developing countries rely on deforestation for farmland to grow on as well as construction, which causes runoff and kills reefs. It's a really elitist argument to say that the rest of the world should adapt to one's particular idea about what being healthy means regardless of the consequences, or that they should focus on protecting one particular resource we care about even if their people starve to death.

Ahhhh ... someone getting to the heart of the matter. Now I never said I was a perfect soldier for this planet. I have questioned my love for this hobby and it's negative impacts. Here are some of the things I have used to help balance my impact on this planet;

Solar panels - (not off the grid yet, but close wind turbines would help me get there.

Driving hybrid electric cars

Using cotton bags for all purchases (not just groceries)

taking glass containers to restaurants for leftovers

Chemical free garden

Worm Composting

Recycling 80% of my waste

help people at hospital learn about ways to live & eat healthy

If you try to get plastic & chemicals out of your life, it will seem like a daunting task, but I think my resume shows we can take steps in the right direction.

It would be nice to leave D's & R's out of this conversation, because I am not affiliated with either of these so called parties & ONLY have an agenda that any Mother, Father or Grandparent would appreciate. I want my children to be healthy, happy & be a positive role model for this planets future, once again I guess I'm just crazy like that.:wildone: