EcoSystems

[ivans75]

omg this is still going on...

well probably mr elegance seems to know everthing about elegance coral thus his name is such...

I wish I had my camera handy when I saw these whole bunch of elegance corals on the mud like sand nearby Janeponto island, ujung pandang, south sulawesi so I can show it to you. They live on shallow water they dont live on reefs, they are on the sand on the mud. And I've seen them with my own very eyes...here in Indonesia. Or perhaps you know in your area where elegance coral is growing. You have been studying about them. can you please show me where you have learnt? perhaps my eyes are wrong and I was dillusional when I visited the area.

So you are absolutely sure that healthy coral reefs surrounding water is crystal clear and those with floating particles are not healthy?

In a moment I will show u a few pics of acropra plantation or farm or aquaculture. These farms are in about 1.5 meter deep on low tide and about 2.5 meter deep on high tide.

 

[ivans75]

This is where they grow fragged acros, montis and the likes... the water is clean..its clear but not free of floating particles. These SPS corals live and grow quite happy in this area. They are placed on metal frames tied with some heavy duty rubber band. I had snorkled there few times.

It's not that I am trying to split hair and not liking the term crystal clear but a body of water on the ocean at least in my area where you corals are from are never free of organic particles. Plankton boom can be seen at least once every week or so, high tide and low tides bring all the organic matters in and out of the bay. Shallow area has more organic matters, and thats where those gonioporas, some sps, favia live.

U may have read alot lol but I live here where your corals come from...not trying to disrespect but you assume and read to much, better pack up and visit where your name came from, I'll be happy to accompany you to have a little of splash in our warm tropical paradise water.

 

[ivans75]

ok more pics for everyone to enjoy

 

[thebanker]

These two pictures exemplify what I've been talking about, and some other posters here too.

Look above the coral in the water, those speckles are the effect of microparticles that are too close to the lens to come into focus. I don't know what more evidence you need. The water is clear but full of particulate, it's not a debatable point, it just is.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

As a side point, the supports holding up the corals look like crap with all the algae and I wouldn't want them in my tank.

 

[ivans75]

Banker, hehehe, yeah I know that...was just trying to tell Mr Elegance, there re always organic particles floating in water but that doesnt mean its not clean

 

[thebanker]

As a side point, the supports holding up the corals look like crap with all the algae and I wouldn't want them in my tank.

Sshhh, Randy, Ivan's not going to send us free samples if you make fun of them!! :lol:

 

[der_wille_zur_macht]

Since the thread is way off topic and the OP is probably not even reading any more, I say we ditch the whole water clarity issue and just get Ivan to post more info and photos of the coral farm!

 

[thebanker]

DWZM you have to argue, this is the argument department

 

[Flanders]

If this is your first time in Fight Club, you have to fight.

 

[der_wille_zur_macht]

One does not simply walk into Mordor!

 

[Gravesj1s]

Well in that case,the overall thread is interesting but I dont see pristine reef nutrient dynamics applying to the home aquarium.You couldn't possibly duplicate it,fish would starve to death trying to keep nutrients that insanely low.

We've all read articles describing fish in the wild as "fat" whitch would be impossible to do and keep organic in both particulate and dissolved form as found on the GBR.Same with inorganic nutrients.I guess I dont see the point or even where there is an argument.

-Steve

 

[Flanders]

In here there were two guys killin' each other, but I guess that's better than 20 million.

 

[elegance coral]

omg this is still going on...

Yep...The fun hasn't stopped yet.:beer:

I wish I had my camera handy when I saw these whole bunch of elegance corals on the mud like sand nearby Janeponto island, ujung pandang, south sulawesi so I can show it to you.

I wish you would have had your camera too. Photos of wild elegance in their natural habitat aren't all that common.

They live on shallow water they dont live on reefs, they are on the sand on the mud. And I've seen them with my own very eyes...here in Indonesia. Or perhaps you know in your area where elegance coral is growing. You have been studying about them. can you please show me where you have learnt? perhaps my eyes are wrong and I was dillusional when I visited the area.

I don't think you're delusional. I think something is getting lost in translation. I agree with you that elegance corals live in shallow water, and on muddy bottoms. They also live in rubble zones, deep waters (100+ feet) and on the reef itself. They can't live on the reef crest where they would be buffeted by strong surges though. They would be beat to death. They are large polyps with a relatively small area of attachment. They need calmer waters, or protected areas of the reef to survive.

So you are absolutely sure that healthy coral reefs surrounding water is crystal clear and those with floating particles are not healthy?

This doesn't have to be so complicated. Coral reefs grow and prosper when nutrients, both dissolved and in particulate form, are in low concentrations. As these nutrient levels rise, the health of the reef, and its ability to grow, diminishes.

 

[elegance coral]

This is where they grow fragged acros, montis and the likes... the water is clean..its clear but not free of floating particles. These SPS corals live and grow quite happy in this area.

Where are the polyps on these "happy" corals? Why are they all withdrawn? Could it be that this is a harsh environment for these corals??????

They are placed on metal frames tied with some heavy duty rubber band. I had snorkled there few times.

These corals survive there because someone is constantly tending to their garden. look between the racks, to the ground below. What do you see? I see dead corals covered in silt/detritus. This is what mother nature does to these corals, in this area, without man's intervention. She kills them. If it weren't for someone constantly going out there fighting back the algae, and tending to their garden, these corals would be engulfed by algae, and end up like the corals you see on the bottom. They'd simply be dead pieces of reef rubble.

you assume and read to much,

Now you sound like the wife.:lmao:

better pack up and visit where your name came from, I'll be happy to accompany you to have a little of splash in our warm tropical paradise water.

I would love nothing more than to do that. It would be a dream come true. I probably wouldn't come home.:lmao:

 

[elegance coral]

These two pictures exemplify what I've been talking about, and some other posters here too.

Look above the coral in the water, those speckles are the effect of microparticles that are too close to the lens to come into focus. I don't know what more evidence you need. The water is clear but full of particulate, it's not a debatable point, it just is.

It's also an area that turns living stony corals into dead reef rubble. The water doesn't appear all that clear to me either. The rack appears to stop just a couple of feet beyond the camera, and everything beyond that is so cloudy, you can't tell what it is.

 

[jimmy frag]

Ivan, you know that the reefs you dive are slowly dieing off and changing so why would you argue that acro thrive in those conditions.

 

[elegance coral]

I think we're at the point where we need to start citing scientific journals.

What do you want cited? Flanders posted a paper on the concentration of plankton on one reef. Is that what you were looking for?

and I can say that on each and every excursion to living stony reefs, the water was full of particulate matter. Not so much that you can't see, but enough to create that backscatter of tiny particles, everywhere you look. Is the water clear? Sure. Most of the time, but the particles are always there, even on clearest of days. And some days aren't so clear, and the water looks dirty.

Even where I live, in southern CA, there are planktonic blooms that are so thick, at night you can touch the ocean and send phosphorescent green ripples from your fingertips. I wouldn't consider our local ecology a "reef" in the terms we're talking about here, but the water is very clear, and very full of biological particulate matter.

I don't disagree with what you're saying here. A "backscatter of tiny particles", in clean and clear water is much different than saying there's a "TON" or "Lots" of stuff in clean and clear water. For naturally occurring waters, the waters around healthy, growing, tropical, coral reefs are very clean and clear. That is one of the major reasons divers flock to these areas. There's probably just as much life to see in a swamp, but very few people dive in them because there's to much "stuff" in the water, making visibility very poor.

The only reason I've spent so much time in this thread is that people, like the producers of "Miracle Mud", are convincing hobbyists that these reefs flourish in nutrient rich, dirty, muddy, swamp type habitats. Reading some of the posts in this thread shows how effective this has been. There's a huge sector of this hobby that believes this is the perfect environment for the animals we keep. If there weren't, people couldn't make money selling mud for our aquariums, or by convincing people to collect 6" of rot and decay on the bottom of their aquariums.

These coral reefs flourish in clean, nutrient poor waters. If people realize this, maybe they'll start maintaining their systems with this in mind, and we'll stop seeing so many, "why do I have an algae problem?", threads in the reef discussion forum. Maybe there will be no more "old tank syndrome". Maybe hobbyists could stop spending so much money on snake oils to cure all the problems their high nutrient system is causing. Maybe, the animals will start doing well in our systems, and hobbyists can actually enjoy the hobby. Naturally, this would be horrible for the industry behind the hobby, but it would be great for the pets in these aquariums.

 

[r-balljunkie]

EC,
I’m not going to sift thru your comments and quote/ retort some of your statements but you are waaaaaay off base on some of your assumptions. There are other corals present on the lagoon side aside from what is shown on the photo's of the coral propagation rack. It’s not ‘full’ of rubble and dead coral like you assume.

You can’t set these types of racks oceanside, or they would get tore up. You set them up in protected alcoves.

The types of corals that are growing in the shallow lagoons vary a bit from what you’ll find at deeper depths, but nevertheless it’s a growing reef, just in shallower waters, often feet from the shores, and wholly exposed at low tide.

The internet is a double edged sword. It provides information to everyone that wasn’t available to masses 20 years ago but there's no substitution for actual experience and seeing and observing the environment………verses attending ‘Google State University’ behind a computer screen.

My concern is someone is going to read some of your posts, and take it as gospel; however a large percentage of your assumptions are just plain full of holes, at best. Corals are more resilient than you think and nutrient levels are not the driving factor whether a reef prospers or is in decline.

I’ll quit posting to this thread, seems a moot point, albeit good for info-tainment.


Ivan, thanks for posting pics. I think I had one of those efflos in the pic a few years ago…it didn’t make it. Can you send me a refund, retro based?
C

 

[thebanker]

From what I've read, ocean acidification and mean temperature rise are the main causes of coral reef decline.