Edge/HOG regulators...???

tgreene

Reefer
After doing so heavy reading this morning, I'm very seriously considering a HOG D1-cold and pair of HOG 2nd stages for my new rig.

The prices are outstanding, and the performance specs appear to be every bit as good as regs that cost 2-3 times as much.

Divers Supply in Macon sells the 1st stage for $169 and the 2nd for $99ea, meaning that I could buy a full double set for same price that I paid for each of my Cressi Titanium Ellipse/Alaska setups.

http://www.divers-supply.com/Hog-First-Stage-D1-Cold-P3949.aspx

http://www.divers-supply.com/Hog-Balanced-Second-Stage-P3951.aspx

I'm most specifically wanting to hear from SeaJay, Diver07, Bill and the other Tech divers here...

-Tim
 
I just called Divers Supply and inquired about returning a brand new "Sea Elite" reg set that I bought for a backup, and primarily to have a very low cost spare 1st stage.

They said that since I've never used this set yet, that they would be more than happy to accept a return and apply that amount towards the HOG regs.

That will save me a lot of money, so I'm stoked! :D

-Tim
 
I know that Joel Silverstein (from Deep Sea Detectives, "Shadow Divers," "U-869," "USS Monitor" fame and more) owns a shop in Lake Havasu, AZ called "Tech Diving Limited." He specializes in a lot of HOG rigs, and can also give smokin' deals on their regulator systems.

I didn't know Joel (other than knowing his name through books and mags and such - he was an author of a well-known dive magazine article, too, for many years) until a few months ago, when I sought him out as a potential team member for a very deep dive to take place off the Eastern US Seaboard sometime in the spring of next year. After spending hours talking to the man, I feel like I know him well now, although that will remain to be seen during our dives.

My impression is that Joel is a great guy, amazingly knowlegable, and can be considered one of the founding fathers of today's wreck divers. I have a tremendous amount of respect for his accomplishments.

Contact his shop and talk to him about HOG brand equipment. I'm confident that he'll give you the "straight skinny" on them, although I'm sure he considers them quality equipment, as his shop sells them.

I personally have never dived HOG brand equipment, so unfortunately, I am not qualified to give you an opinion on them.

That said, I'm a fan of sealed first stages (with no turrets or other failure points) and ROUND second stages that can be dismantled without tools underwater in case of clogging or contamination. I'm also a fan of the whole team diving the same brand regs so that parts can be interchanged and shared in case of failure. Intermediate pressures (pressure feeding the second stage, commonly referred to as "low pressure" by the manufacturers) should be 120-140 psi so that it's interchangable with ScubaPro and Apeks and Aqualung regs. If the HOG regs qualify under those conditions, then I'd say "go for it" if the price is right. You might want to purchase just ONE, though, just to see if they're any good. Unfortunately, I don't know anyone who uses them.

For what it's worth, my next reg set will be a complete Apeks XTX100 system. I'm a real fan of the one-piece solid brass first stages, with genuinely different (and genuinely great) hose routing due to it's shape. I also like that the diaphragm is pointed "down" on the 100's first stage to keep it out of trouble. The second stage is essentially the same as my ATX50s, ATX200s, and XTX50 second stages that I already own, so everything's totally interchangable.

That said, most of the serious divers I know dive with ScubaPro regs. I haven't had much luck with ScubaPros diving in silty conditions, and find Apeks regs to be much better in that environment.

I'd be very interested in your opinion of HOG regs.

I also have a Dive Rite regulator setup - love the reg, hate the black finish, which tends to ding and scratch very easily.
 
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I also have a Dive Rite regulator setup - love the reg, hate the black finish, which tends to ding and scratch very easily.
If what you have is the RG-3000, they appear to be the same system with the exception of the HOG being chromed brass rather than powder coated.

I read numerous reviews on ScubaBoard about these, where many of the "higher ups" have transitioned over to them for both performance and price reasons.

Try Googling "hog regulators" and you'll hit on a number of SB threads that discuss these, as well as show performance data listed here --> http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/edge-gear/309166-hog-bal-second-hog-d1-antsi-results.html

-Tim
 
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Well, I've had pretty good luck with mine, and would consider it an improvement to be chromed (my favorite finish - seems most durable) over the black powdercoat.

Yeah, mine's an RG-3000. I use it as a stage regulator, which is to say that I haven't used it to the extent that I've used my Apeks. The RG-3000 has a turret on it, which most regs do - I consider turrets an unnecessary failure point (high pressure o-ring inside) that complicates things with no perceptable benefit. That said, I've never had one fail - I've just rebuilt enough of them to know that solid first stages with no turrets and correct hose routing to begin with are superior to those with turrets.

The Dive Rite's second stage is slightly larger than the Apeks, too... Especially at the exhaust tee. Some people feel that wider tees disperse bubbles better, but I'm not one of them. I much prefer the smaller size reg of the XTX series (formerly the ATX series) Apeks, and find that the best tool to have to keep exhausted bubbles from bothering the diver is a black-skirted mask. Besides, if you're horizontal and prone, the bubbles really exhaust past your ears, not in your line of sight anyway.

The HOG regs sound pretty nice if they're a Dive Rite that's chrome... But if I were buying regs all over again, I'd shop only for an Apeks XTX100 with an XTX50 backup.

Alternatively, a less pricey option would be an Apeks DS4 first stage with a pair of XTX50 second stages. Same reg, but without the funky shape of the XTX100 (which I like).

The XTX series regs have been consistently proven to be top-reated in the (admittedly jaded) dive magazine tests.

EE services both Scubapro and Apeks regulators - much cheaper than expected. The last time they did one of mine, they did a fantastic job and had them tuned "DIR" and back to me within a week.

An Apeks DS4 w/ XTX50 second stage can be had for around $300 here: http://www.scubastore.com/scuba-diving/Regulators-Regulators/381/s I have purchased many of my regs from Scubastore and recommend them for the sale of Apeks.

EE has no problem servicing regs you purchased somewhere else - so long as you're paying (parts + labor = usually around $50/stage). Don't be fooled by the dive shop sales tactic of, "No warranty if purchased online." ALL regs are under warranty by the manufacturer for manufacturer's defects - that's the law in the US. What they mean is that, if you purchase regs online, they won't do your annual servicing for free... Which they imply they WILL do for free if you purchase them at the same shop where you'll get them serviced. The truth is that when it comes to annual service, many shops will give the PARTS (o-rings, seats, diaphragms) to you for free (since the manufacturer supplies them to the shop for free), but not the labor. In other words, annual servicing, if you purchased the regs from them, might only cost you $30/stage instead of $50/stage. This is completely independent of a "warranty," even though the shops will often tell you that "purchasing online will void the warranty." Walk out of the shop if they tell you that - they have no idea what they're talking about, and they're flat wrong and quite illegal.

Knowing you, you'll end up sending your regs in to EE, just like I do now, anyway (who else ya gonna trust with your life support?)... So it doesn't matter where you purchase your regs.

Run away from anyone that tells you that if you purchase online, they're not "real" Apeks or ScubaPro or HOG or Dive Rite. There are no such things as "fake" brand name regulator products like you'll see in the electronics industry.
 
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I haven't dove a HOG reg but I almost picked up one myself on a Black Friday sale. I didn't really need one though so I didn't.... From what I've read they are different than the RG3000 (which I have one of for a deco reg) but they and lots of regs are all made by the same company http://www.oceandivers.com.tw/default.php However different companies i.e. Edge/HOG, Dive Rite, etc. specify different components.

I looked on decostop but couldn't find many reviews on 'em. The little I found was favorable - I think they're just a bit too new to have many reviews. The guy that owns Edge/HOG is a regular poster there and really stands behind his line of equipment, he's in general a very knowledgeable diver so I have faith that these are solid regs.

Plus the HOG just looks cool :D I believe this would be a solid and safe purchase. And almost did so myself...

Aaron
 
Yep, same place.

I think that there's a monetary exchange rate that works in our favor there, so their prices are unusually low.

...That's just a hunch, though. :) All I know is that when I order, I get factory-fresh Apeks regs sent to me pronto (ole!) and they're on my doorstep in record time. :) (Arriva! Arriva! Andele!) :D

The customer service paraphenalia that they send with the regs (en englais) sure show some cuties working there though... :D
 
Price looks good. If I was in the market I'd be tempted myself. But I'm still using my 25 year old Sherwoods :D Dirt simple and always work :)
 
i to no nothing about these but the links show they are good i am new to diving with only about 50 dives in but i am a diehard scubapro guy....all though i did just receive my new oceanic computer and am dieing to get in my pol to try it out but it is 30 degrees here so maybe i will wait good luck with your new rig and happy diveing
 
I just found some great info at divematrix.com... http://www.divematrix.com/showthread.php?t=8452

I finally got the chance to try out my new Hog 2nd stages on a couple of dives. First dive was to 85fsw and second to 65fsw. Comparison to my 3 'usual' regs goes like thus:

1) Compared to my Kirby Morgan Superflow - I really like the large body of the Kirby Morgan, as the bubbles are directed away from my face and while large and a bit heavy it sits comfortably on my face. The Hog regs are a lot smaller than any of my other regs, and while the light weight meant they sat comfortably in my mouth the small exhaust doesn't direct bubbles as nicely as on the KM reg, though it is certainly not bad at all. The biggest difference is the ease of breathing. The hog reg is probably the nicest breathing reg I've got. The detuning knob is really nice as it is set to barely freeflow when 'wide open' and just a little bit stiff when fully detuned. This is one beautiful breathing regulator

2) Compared to a DiveRite RG1210 - it's about the same size, though a bit lighter with very similar ergonomics. The DR regulator feels like it is pushing air into me, while the Hog regulator feels much more natural.

3) Compared to a ScubaPro G250 - a bit smaller than the G250, though it breathes better and the bubbles seem to divert a bit nicer as well.

The build quality, as far as the fit and finish goes is much better than any of the above regulators -

Overall I am very happy with this reg. The only one I currently own which I might choose over it would be my Kirby Morgan, and that is mostly because of the way the exhaust tee diverts bubbles, but it's a big regulator, so that is understandable.

A couple things that are nice include the labelled venturi switch (it is advertised as "one handed operation" being on the same side as the detuning knob, but I don't really care about that one way or another) Another 'little' thing is that the mouthpiece the Hog regs come with are my favorite style with the molded in grip pieces. It's just a little thing, but shows the attention to detail they have with their products.
 
Kirby Morgan appears to be a company that primarily makes products for commercial divers.
 
The way a regulator breathes has everything thing to do with how it is tuned by the technician that services/assembles/tunes it. How long it breathes that way has to do with many factors. If you can't service your own regulators, find a good reg tech and (within reason) he or she should be able to get your regulator to breathe the way you prefer and give you an idea of how long it will perform that way before retuning and/or any issues that you can expect to arise. Most of the comments made about regs above have everything to do with tuning and almost nothing to do with brand or design.

Jackie
 
I know Kirby Morgan stuff pretty well - just like Bill said, it's a "commercial" thing.

Kirby Morgan is best known for it's Superlite diving helmets - a sort of "next step up" from full-faced masks... Imagine a full-face mask with a hard helmet over the entire head of the diver, which keeps the diver's head totally dry. Inside is usually a complete communications system, most often full duplex (so that the diver and the topside support can argue simultaneously :)) and presumably a warm, dry diver. Most often the diver is also using surface-supplied gasses, which is to say that there's no limit in gas supply. Consequently, the diver and topside are usually connected via a wire (rather than wireless, which typically doesn't work well underwater). The gas hose, wire, (and usually a strain relief rope, as well as other hoses to supply gasses for underwater welding) are all tied together in what the commercial divers call an "umbilical." Typically, there is usually a small "bailout" bottle worn by the diver, too, often back-mounted and upside-down so it's super-easy for the diver to manipulate his valve.

All of these perceived advantages come at a price - aside from the typical $10k - $12k pricetag of the "hat" (the helmet), the large, bouyant chamber around the diver's head precludes that he has to wear a lot of weight - which Kirby Morgan minimizes by making the helmets really heavy. Topside, the rig is quite substantial to carry, and really requires topside personnel to attach it to the diver's suit using a collar system. Additionally, the diver usually has to stay in an upright "standing" position, as any other position will often flood the helmet. More often than not, a hat diver minimizes horizontal swimming, if at all, and it's not uncommon to see "hat" divers forgoing fins altogether.

Unfortunately, "hat" diving is a safety requirement in many burning/cutting/welding situations, and almost always a requirement in the petroleum industry, working on offshore oil rigs and such. It can also be a requirement in some other industries like nuclear power, dams and powerplants, dry dock facilities, and the like. If I'm not mistaken, I believe the governing agency with regard to that style of diving is OSHA.

My company avoids hat diving - we feel we get better results using simpler, more streamlined gear and neutral bouyancy in situations that will allow for it... Although we do have one guy that works for us who is completely hat equipped for those situations that are mandated by OSHA.

Kirby Morgan's "Superlite" helmets' roots can be traced back to the original "Mark V" diving helmet, which is the all-copper (and sometimes brass) traditional vintage diving helmet that most people use largely for display in their homes or at the local diver's bar.

Interestingly, to the best of my knowledge, the "Mark V" is STILL being hand-crafted by ONE guy in Florida. They are fully functional, but usually sold only for display purposes... And pretty pricey, since he only makes a few a year, by hand. He is a several-generation Greek-American Abalone (sponge) diver who chose to make the gear rather than try to make his living in the natural sponge industry.

Several years ago Kirby Morgan attempted to touch on the recreational dive industry by making available their second-stage regulators that are normally only equipped on their helmets. From there, they designed (or perhaps had designed) a first stage reg, and then made available a plastic second stage body so as to attract more divers with a lighter, more modern-appearing second stage.

Like many non-consumer oriented companies, Kirby Morgan does not change regulator designs annually - their mentality, which is probably pretty accurate, is that they got it right the first time when they designed their regs, and only make minor changes (if at all) on a bi-decade basis or longer. Consequently, a Kirby Morgan regulator tends to be robust, unchanging, traditional, solid and proven.

That said, the comparison of the HOG regs is a bit like comparing a brand new Hyundai Tiburon or a Mitsubishi Eclipse to a '67 Hemi 'Cuda. Or test-driving a new Ford F-150 after driving a new Kenworth. Not to imply that one is necessarily better than the other, it's just an odd comparison, as each has it's advantages and the different classes make comparison impossible.

That said, my divers all use different regulator systems, so we see the good, the bad, and the ugly. Those most serious about doing a lot of diving in contaminated, silty waters often gravitate toward the Apeks XTX50/XTX50/DS4 setup, although those that feel that it's worth the price for hose routing often go on up to an XTX100/XTX50 setup. These regs are dry-sealed and pretty bulletproof, while still maintaining the comfort and neutral bouyancy of composite regs (typically referred to as "recreational-style"). That those on the team that are doing the most diving are all diving internally-identical regulators should say something... It at least makes in-the-field repairs and "swaps" a seamless process.

These new HOG regs are a virtually identical design to many of the Apeks stuff, although I see that their first stages are unsealed, creating an entry point for water and silt and muck... So they wouldn't do well in the contaminated (or cold) waters that we typically dive. I'm also not a fan of "turret" designs, which always seem to be in the wrong position, and utilize a high-pressure o-ring, which is an enormous, catastrophic failure point in a life support system. Because of this, my company certainly won't be purchasing any - aside from the life support issue (for which we always have a backup plan), a failed first stage could cost us tens of thousands of dollars in the field - or at least the "grounding" of an otherwise capable diver.

The HOG second stages appear to be clones of the Apeks line, so we may try some of them out... A tough sell for us, though, since we already know and love our Apeks second stages.
 
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The way a regulator breathes has everything thing to do with how it is tuned by the technician that services/assembles/tunes it. How long it breathes that way has to do with many factors. If you can't service your own regulators, find a good reg tech and (within reason) he or she should be able to get your regulator to breathe the way you prefer and give you an idea of how long it will perform that way before retuning and/or any issues that you can expect to arise. Most of the comments made about regs above have everything to do with tuning and almost nothing to do with brand or design.

Jackie

+1!

Glad someone mentioned that... A good tech can make almost any reg breathe however he wants. :)

Regulator design should be graded more on robustness and longevity and hose routing, if you ask me.

Even the mouthpieces can be easily changed, making most "comfort" issues null and void (perhaps with the exception of the second stage's bouyancy characteristcs).

We've found that better-quality regulators are easier (and more consistent) to tune than cheap ones, but other than that... Performance isn't a very good point to make a comparison regarding regs.
 
...We've found that better-quality regulators are easier (and more consistent) to tune than cheap ones, but other than that...


I really think that consistency is the difference between brands that have similar designs - like comparing Apeks sealed diaphram first stages to Dive Rite sealed diaphram first stages to the generic "branded" chinese sealed diaphram firsts (like HOG or OMS or Salvo or Promate, etc). The design is essentially the same and you could swap parts between them (NOT recommended but possible), but if you compared 10 of each, the Apeks would be the most consistent in performance - say 9 of 10 would max their performance standads. The Dive Rites would probably hit 8 of 10 and the generics would hit about 5 or 6 of 10.
 
Ah, always interesting to hear about the commercial side.

And FYI I see the HOG comes in both a sealed ICE version and non-sealed version.
 
My inclination is to buy a pair of HOG 2nd stages and then buy the Apeks DS4 seperately so as to be able to create a very solid system w/ a sealed 1st stage. In looking at the Apeks XTX50 reg set, it appears that it only ships with the DST and I do not want a non-sealed reg!

-Tim
 
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