Effect of frag trade on local merchants - Feedback wanted

[Vargklo]

Dear fellow aquarists,

Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢m one of the moderators of the Swedish reef keeping community saltvattensguiden

I would appreciate your input on the topic of ââ"šÂ¬Ã‚frag trade meetingsââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ and their impact on the local merchants in the fish and coral trade. More specifically, to what extent is trading of frags between hobbyists an obstacle to a flourishing local fish and coral trade?

Let me first explain the background of our market. The Swedish marine aquarium hobby is still developing and has not reached the US levels of penetration. I would say there are at least two reasons for this, one reason is access to retailers, another reason is economical.

Sweden is not very densely populated. Total population is about 9 million distributed across a geographic area about the size of California. Local retailers catering to the marine aquarium hobby are found only in a handful of major cities. In total, I would estimate that some 12-15 retailers countrywide carry some marine fish and coral stock. Although a few retailers do ship some living stock, the vast majority of all living stock is sold over the counter. Several Internet based mail order merchants also cater to the local market, but they all concentrate on imported hardware. Therefore, it is not uncommon for hobbyists to carpool and travel very long distances to purchase a fish or a coral.

Long distances to retailers is not the only factor hindering a rapid spread of the hobby, there are economical reasons also. Although Sweden has the 6th highest Gross National Income per capita in the world, it is still 25% less than in the US. At the same time, air freight of living stock to our part of the world is expensive. A middle-sized acropora coral costs about USD 80-90 and a tridacna clam about USD 100 at a local retailer.

We have a well functioning Internet based community around the hobby in the country, dedicated to help each other and foster the spread of the hobby. Based on the arguments above, we are also keenly aware of the fact that support from dedicated local retailers is vital for us to succeed in spreading the hobby.

The issues at hand, which we are currently debating in our forum, is whether it would be helpful or counter-productive to our mission to start organized frag trade events. Trading of frags between hobbyists is currently only done on an ad hoc basis at best, and we are debating whether to organize it to increase interchange between hobbyists. One hand, frag trade could help beginners and experienced hobbyists alike to enrich our tanks with new species. On the other hand, we do not want to organize any activities that might take away business from or otherwise discourage local retailers.

I would be very grateful for any input on the issue above from more mature markets, particularly the US. Have our issues above ever been relevant for you? Please share your perspectives with us.

Regards,
Carl Farberger

 

[geo]

We like to encourage the local vendors to participate in the large frag swaps, not exclude them from it.
It sounds to me that in your situation the trading among hobbyist would be even more important.

Trading promotes captive propagation in the hobby, and that is always a good thing for obvious reasons.

Even with new hobbyist using the swaps to acquire coral the local vendors will benefit with dry good purchases.

 

[CeeGee]

look at the bright side. You guys have some of the best metal bands in the world!
Repeat after me Opeth, In flames! Opeth, In flames!

 

[RicksReefs]

frag trades should actually help out the local retailers. once you guys get done trading between yourselfs, the fishstores are likely to get your cast offs they can't normally find. I run an internet coral company and also run the coral and invert section of a LFS. I encourage hobbyists with excess to trade or sell it back to me. (i'm also a coral propagator and strongly believe in captive propagation and leaving what we can in the ocean)

it can be a win win for all involved..

 

[Pandora]

I too believe frag trading can only help the industry at large, though initially the small LFS may feel a little bit of the hit. As others have pointed out, it helps increase diversity in hobbyist tanks without taking more out of the ocean, and it promotes both captive propagation & education. If local LFS are truly interested in helping their consumers, then they will be active participants and encourage trading rather than jealously guarding their stock. Our club meetings are often held at a sponsor LFS; this way, they get free promotion and an influx of new customers that might not ordinarily know where they are.

In the long run, the promotion of trading encourages more interest in the hobby in general, i.e. more business for them with more customers... at least this is the theory. This will decrease the cost of certain corals as they become more common through exchange, and some, as pointed out above, can be sold back to the stores. In turn, this could push them to seek out shipment of other more uncommon species, which could be good and bad.

 

[maddyfish]

Free trade in corals, and anything else for that matter benefits everyone. You the hobbyist, because you'll get more cheaper corals, and the retailer becasue he'll sell more and bigger tanks.

 

[Tammy3770]

some things I get at frag swaps (and I've only been to one) grow out in my tank and then I take them to the LFS.
they pick a price of 5% 10% lower than the wild caught stuff of the same quality then give me 1/2 that as store credit. It helps other hobbyist get a few bucks off a good tank raised coral, helps the LFS by selling lower priced coral, and I get $$$ for enjoying something in my tank for a while.
although, I know some LFS do not encourage a frag swap they say their livestock sales go down for a few months.

 

[Vargklo]

I appreciate you feedback very much, it is very much "on spot" and very helpful to us.

Please continue to elaborate on you views!

 

[Anemia]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6564901#post6564901 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by CeeGee
look at the bright side. You guys have some of the best metal bands in the world!
Repeat after me Opeth, In flames! Opeth, In flames!

I like listening to Colony while I frag mine up. Gets the blood pumping through the plier hand.


On frag swapping... You can't trade frags where I live, the local club will come out of the woodwork and curb you. That's what happens when you let people who run the businesses run the club too.

 

[Azurel]

One of the local business here in Kalamazoo and the only one that is willing to trade corals is one that I most freqent. I have traded RBTA, frags of leathers, whole colonies and in return they are willing to trade livestock that they have on hand. This brings diversity in there shop and allows me toget colonies with out the out of pocket expense(which I like). Most of my zoanthid colonies I have recieved with trades from them. I think it is more improtant for the LFS to be involved then to exclude. The other fish shops here in this town will not do any trading there for I have had to buy less live stock from those shops. It also brings the LFS(that trades) closer to the hobbiest and the clubs and industry for that matter.

As far as the club curbing you that is a real shame, then why have the club if there is no inter-hobbiest trading. there are a few business owners in the club here in west michigan but they do not curb but bring things to trade, like old dry goods,pumps ect....

 

[sundance1]

I know in the town I live in,we are starving for a aquarium store that sells saltwater fish and inverts and corals.the closest store is a 45 min drive and is not all that large.He is the only buiseness that sells these items for almost 100 miles in any direction! Anybody that would open a large store here would rake in the money! Frag trading would have little or NO effect in the LFS if the LFS kept their prices fair and carried a good selection.

 

[OasisTF]

Bump... * FOLLOWING the thread * Hopefully that does not happen here in the states -Just in the last 6 months a stores has closed here and in the last year a handful have closed in our state.

Hector

 

[FloridaFishMan]

I think that it could help or hurt the LFS. I think that in equilibrium it can benefit both LFS and hobbyist. I think that if people trade corals and such to get a handle on corals and it gives the LFS insentive to stock corals that are not common in trade. But then again if the LFS can't get corals that aren't being traded then their sales will dive. The reason they are so expensive at the LFS is because they have that cost of equipment, electric and rent of the building (not to mention taxes).

So I think that if you trade with your buddies and make it a point to include LFS in the frag selling/ swapping. Possibly take a trip to your LFS and buy something from time to time. It is hard to say yes or no for any area.

 

[OasisTF]

The only benefit we see is more money for the hobyist after the auction $$$$ - ( in a auction ) trading will be better, oohh no one auctions for the money:lol:

When we had our meeting no would ever show maybe 2 - 5 peeps, but if we can sell ( auction )something we get a great turn out 3 -4 times as more.


Hector

 

[Vargklo]

Thanks for all the input!

We are progressing the idea in our forum here in Sweden and we will try to approach a few local dealers and see how they respond to the idea of hosting or sponsoring an event. It will be interesting!

 

[fishome25]

The prices you quoted don't sound any didfferent then ours.

I've worked on the business end of the hobby for years now and reef clubs and hobbyist trading is an enourmous competition. I am not saying I'm against it. But it absolutly hurts coral sales and is considered a huge obstacle.

 

[piranhaking]

im not involved in retail and havent discused the issue with anyone that is, but i know that if it werent for getting frags from a member in an aquarium club i am in, i wouldnt have a reef tank at all. I only have a 10 gallon set up and our lfs rarley has any frags and their whole colonys are to large for my tank and mainly just more expensive than i can afford, however i by having the tank i have bought alot of supplys from them. The club was established by workers at the lfs and sponcered by the owner. I got in touch with the member that i got the frags from on the clubs forum. I think that frag trades are a good way to get someone that is starting in the hobby to decide to upgrade tanks, by allowing them to get their feet wet (no pun intended) in keeping corals that they wouldnt invest in otherwise. I know that my case isnt the rule, but i would say i am by far not the only exception.

 

[Ali]

one aspect of this is the proportion of profit from corals to the rest of the profit of the LFS. If LFS profits mostly from the sale of corals, swapping may hinder their business some. However as someone else pointed out acquiring more corals through trade or growing small frags requires lighting, food, salt etc which are consumed in the process of keeping corals. The sales of such items would increase if more people got involved with the hobby and had more corals that they would need to take care of....

Another aspect is basic economics..we all have a sum of disposible income that we spend on our hobbies. I am not goign to stop paying rent to buy corals. If i do end up trading a frag and have some extra money, I will still spend this at the LFS on something else. Bottom line is LFS sales will largely depend on peoples disposable income they want to spend on their hobby.

 

[Mykayel]

This same question/argument can be taken a step futher as to weather or not we should use mail order (internet stores) to buy dry goods (and even livestock) instead of buying from our local stores. If what you are doing is drying the local shops out of business then are you really hurting youself? Well, that's a question only you can answer for yourself, but being the capitalist that I am, I say that competition, no matter what form it is in is good for everyone involved. There's no way I would have got involved in this hobby if I had to spend $50-$100 for every frag. Why should you pay very high prices just so someone else can make a big profit? I have a LFS in my town that carries salt water stuff and the next closest one is an hour and half drive away.... and they charge 3-10 times as much as the shops that are that far away. Would you pay $8 for a hermit crab? I just won't support someone like that just for convience.

I say help your fellow reefers out, even set up fraggin workshops where you show others how to frag the corals they have, it will only help the hobby in the long run IMHO.

 

[piranhaking]

i dont think that second paragraph could have been put any better Ali. I couldnt figure out how to say that with out making a mess out of it so i didnt, but i agree completely most of the time most people are going to spend the money on their tank one way or the other. I also think another great point was made earlier that holding the frag swap at a lfs has great potential to get people in the store that arent tipically in the store, especially in locations with more than one store available.