Englishrebel's 260 Gallon System Build

[WaterKeeper]

:lol:

No, taking a hot to earth ground is know in the trade as a ground fault and a ground fault interrupter lives for that.

Just didn't want to get you fried after all that work.

 

[EnglishRebel]

Tom
So you cannot read voltage from hot to ground with a meter on a GFCI because the GFCI detects the current flow that the meter needs and trips! Never knew that, as I'd always used the Fluke to check voltage with the breaker off (to make sure it was off and I didn't get lit up :eek2: )
So because I get no reading from ground to the sump water means I didn't have any stray voltage?
BTW I'm dosing lime water at 100 mL every hour (from a mix of 6 heaped teaspoons per 2 gallon jug) with my metering pump and my PH is up to 7.65 (it had been as low as 7.56 during the day). Will keep track of it as I may need to up the dose to 150 mL/hour.

 

["Umm fish?"]

Your tank must be a hotbed of romance.

Maybe that's why I was having all the heat issues?

A jumper quote I heard once:

The only fish that doesn't jump is a dead fish.

I started with 12 chromis in the display. I now have 7 in the display, 2 in the overflow, 2 in the rabbitfish tank in the basement, and 1 in the sump along with one of the yellowhead jawfish. Sigh.

 

[EnglishRebel]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15103448#post15103448 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by "Umm, fish?"
Maybe that's why I was having all the heat issues?
A jumper quote I heard once:
I started with 12 chromis in the display. I now have 7 in the display, 2 in the overflow, 2 in the rabbitfish tank in the basement, and 1 in the sump along with one of the yellowhead jawfish. Sigh.

I hope that none get in my overflow as it would be a regal PITA to get it out, what with a 48"x6" box filled with six 1-1/2" standpipes. I have an external overflow so with the Eurobracing, the overflow "gap" is filled with eggcrate onto which I have attached plastic diamond mesh gutter guard so nothing can get through that's larger than 1/2" and they cant get over the overflow because of the Eurobracing. Now one could jump out of the tank, do a double back flip over the Eurobracing and swan dive into the overflow. That would warrant a 9 on my score card. :lol: :lol:
Now if he missed the overflow or bounced off the pipes and landed on the floor behind the stand, that would rate a 0.
What do you think of closing in the 2" gap between the overflow box and the wall? Or better still attach a piece of acrylic to the wall and slope it back to the tank so he could do a backward somersault hit the acrylic slope and do a downhill slalom back to the tank. :eek1:

 

[WaterKeeper]

Alan,

Your pH has me at a loss. You really don't have much in the tank that would reduce it at this point. However, we tried getting CO₂ out of the room and that didn't seem to raise it. I could see it being down in a heavily stocked tank but you don't have much at this point. I guess until I figure something else out the KW will have to do. Is your calcium and alkalinity increasing? It may get somewhat high as you don't have much Ca demand right now.

 

[tonyespinoza]

hi alan - sorry if i missed this before, but how are you reading pH? is it by probe only? apart from miscalibration or the probe being dirty, i have also seen probes read low when there was stray voltage in the tank or the meter was running off an AC/DC adapter. my pinpoint pH probe always read more "accurately" via battery. might be worth checking pH with a cheap API kit if the probe is your only pH check. also, what's your dKH (and what test kit do you use? LaMotte is my fav, but API is supposed to be good too). in a sense, i would worry about dKH way more than pH. are you dosing anything other than kalk? (obviously good to know your Ca and Mg as well as it will interact with Alk.) what salt mix are you using? (instant ocean for example is low in Mg.)

 

[EnglishRebel]

Tony
I'm checking PH with both my ReefKeeper probe and a Hannah portable unit. I recently calibrated the RKE probe and it's good (reads 7.0 when I put it back in the 7.0 buffer solution). The Hannah reads 7.7 when the RKE reads 7.6 but haven't calibrated it recently and it only reads to one decimal place and the RKE reads to two places.
I don't have stray voltage as I just tested with an meter and it reads the same if I put the probe in a cup of water. I'm using Reef Crystals salt and a fresh solution reads 8.1 but have just purchased Oceanic salt. I only have a cheap Red Sea general test kit and could never get the right color for PH (it came out light blue and there was no light blue on the color card).
I do have some LPs corals in the tank and I'm starting to see coralline algae on the glass of my fuge and back glass of the DT. My Calcium was 420 but has dropped to 360 (probably from the algae). Alkalinity is 11.2 dKh and Magnesium is 1400. All tested with API kits but that was 10 days ago -- will retest today. This morning the PH is 7.66 and before I started dosing lime water it was 7.56 so the lime water is working.

Tom
How long does it take to bring the PH up using lime water? I'm dosing 100 mL/hour (2.4 liters or 0.66 gallons per day) with a double strength mixture (4 teaspoons/gallon) and have probably 250 gallons total water volume.

 

["Umm fish?"]

It takes a few days (in my experience). I started dosing at one liter/day and increased the flow by 1 liter/day until the flow rate finally got fast enough to stir up the kalk and I had to stop for a couple of days until it settled again. But now I know how fast I _can't_ go. But now mine cycles between about 8.15-8.3. I'd like to see it a little higher but can't get greedy.

 

[WaterKeeper]

Double strength mixture? Lime water is self limiting as lime has a solubility of less than 2 grams per liter (6.4 grams per gallon) at room temperature. The supernatant is saturated and there should be undissolved lime laying on the bottom of the container after it is mixed. You really want to avoid adding lime solids directly to the tank as they do dissolve and your pH can skyrocket as the buffering system of the tank starts to move toward hydroxyl.

Currently you would be adding about 4.25 grams per day of lime. You could try doubling the amount as you have considerable volume in your system. Of course that depends on your evaporation rate. People with high calcium demand will increase the tank's temperature and blow large fans over the water to get evaporation high enough so they can dose enough KW. That is a bit overkill in my book. For calcium it is far easier to add calcium acetate or calcium chloride instead of going through all that trouble.

For pH the alternative is to use sodium carbonate, soda ash, instead of lime. It has a solubility of 300 grams per liter (1135 g/gal) and can do more to raise the pH than lime alone. Sodium carbonates drawback is that it can precipitate calcium if added too fast and it does increase sodium content of the tank but not to that great an extent. Word of caution here do not mix KW and soda ash as there will be a mess.

You can make you own sodium carbonate additive using baking soda, sodium bicarbonate, and baking it at 350°F for about 30-45 minutes in the oven. Take a box of baking soda and spread it in a thin layer on a baking sheet and place it in the oven. After 45 minutes take it out and let it cool, then dissolve it in two liters of water. Add about a teaspoonful per 10 gallons of tank water. Do it slowly and set the alarm on your pH monitor at 8.3. I think you have an autodosing system and that would work fine. If it is can control the dosing pump that is great. Do be somewhat careful as sodium carbonate can increase the pH too high as well. Also, do it slowly in a turbulent portion of the tank as it can precipitate calcium if added to fast. Once the pH holds at around 8.0-8.2 I'd return to the KW and see if the pH will hold using just that.

So endeth our Sunday Chemistry Sermon. The usher will pass the plate.

 

[EnglishRebel]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15107440#post15107440 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by "Umm, fish?"
It takes a few days (in my experience). I started dosing at one liter/day and increased the flow by 1 liter/day until the flow rate finally got fast enough to stir up the kalk and I had to stop for a couple of days until it settled again. But now I know how fast I _can't_ go. But now mine cycles between about 8.15-8.3. I'd like to see it a little higher but can't get greedy.

Andy
Are you saying I should be stirring the container occasionally to remix the precipitation?

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15107494#post15107494 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by WaterKeeper
Double strength mixture? Lime water is self limiting as lime has a solubility of less than 2 grams per liter (6.4 grams per gallon) at room temperature. The supernatant is saturated and there should be undissolved lime laying on the bottom of the container after it is mixed. You really want to avoid adding lime solids directly to the tank as they do dissolve and your pH can skyrocket as the buffering system of the tank starts to move toward hydroxyl.

Currently you would be adding about 4.25 grams per day of lime. You could try doubling the amount as you have considerable volume in your system. Of course that depends on your evaporation rate. People with high calcium demand will increase the tank's temperature and blow large fans over the water to get evaporation high enough so they can dose enough KW. That is a bit overkill in my book. For calcium it is far easier to add calcium acetate or calcium chloride instead of going through all that trouble.

For pH the alternative is to use sodium carbonate, soda ash, instead of lime. It has a solubility of 300 grams per liter (1135 g/gal) and can do more to raise the pH than lime alone. Sodium carbonates drawback is that it can precipitate calcium if added too fast and it does increase sodium content of the tank but not to that great an extent. Word of caution here do not mix KW and soda ash as there will be a mess.

You can make you own sodium carbonate additive using baking soda, sodium bicarbonate, and baking it at 350°F for about 30-45 minutes in the oven. Take a box of baking soda and spread it in a thin layer on a baking sheet and place it in the oven. After 45 minutes take it out and let it cool, then dissolve it in two liters of water. Add about a teaspoonful per 10 gallons of tank water. Do it slowly and set the alarm on your pH monitor at 8.3. I think you have an autodosing system and that would work fine. If it is can control the dosing pump that is great. Do be somewhat careful as sodium carbonate can increase the pH too high as well. Also, do it slowly in a turbulent portion of the tank as it can precipitate calcium if added to fast. Once the pH holds at around 8.0-8.2 I'd return to the KW and see if the pH will hold using just that.

So endeth our Sunday Chemistry Sermon. The usher will pass the plate.

Tom
When I said "double strength" I was referring to the fact that the recommended mixture for Kalkwasser is 1 level teaspoon per gallon. Because I was not using it a top off water I doubled the strength. Does that make sense?
Also I have soda ash as it's part of the BRS two part system. I stopped dosing that and am trying lime water to raise it and then use the two part to maintain calcium and alkalinity as my tank uses it up instead of a calcium reactor.
Oh and sorry but I'm out of small change -- will you take an IOU? :lol:

 

[rpeeples]

Alan, any updates on the lighting, PH, etc? Is your tank experiencing any algae blooms?

 

[EnglishRebel]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15162617#post15162617 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rpeeples
Alan, any updates on the lighting, PH, etc? Is your tank experiencing any algae blooms?

Ron
No algae blooms to speak of. I'm waiting on an Actinics MH/T5 combo fixture to get here. The PH is still making me scratch my head as I'm dosing 1250mL of extra strength (4 heaped teaspoons per gallon) of lime water every hour. So far over a week I've dosed about 6 gallons and the PH is still stuck at 7.65.

 

[Lightsluvr]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15162651#post15162651 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by EnglishRebel
Ron
No algae blooms to speak of. I'm waiting on an Actinics MH/T5 combo fixture to get here. The PH is still making me scratch my head as I'm dosing 1250mL of extra strength (4 heaped teaspoons per gallon) of lime water every hour. So far over a week I've dosed about 6 gallons and the PH is still stuck at 7.65.

Have you calibrated your PH meter recently?

That seems like a lot of dosing with no appreciable change...

LL

 

[Reefaquariumnut]

That has to be a faulty probe or something. It seems very strange that 6 gallons would not bump the pH up at all.

 

[WaterKeeper]

I believe he has done that and also used a second probe to check pH. Both seem to agree that the pH is down. For the past month we have tried all sorts of things to increase the pH and they have only shown minor improvements. What is really strange is that Alan doesn't have much in the tank which would place a alkalinity/pH burden on the tank. I think this is the first time I've ever run out of solutions for adjusting pH.

Alan, do you think that base rock may be the problem for the pH issues? If it was leaching an acidic compound into the tank it might be the cause. That is rare as artificial rock usually makes the pH go up not down. Just a thought.

 

[wmilas]

Try the Soda Ash. I have the same problems in my large tank. Kalk is pretty much useless for me as the boost I get from the soda ash is much, much greater. I set up an automatic 3 part doser as a Calcium reactor would really poleaxe my Ph... I don't even want to think about it.

I use 3 5 gallon seal-able buckets (reef crystals) with the lids drilled for output tubing and a vaccum break. I use the Reefmedic doser for the dosing.

I made most of my reagents at first but it soon became a pain in the *** for the quantities I use. I just buy them now from bulk reef supply as their prices are extremely reasonable. Its fast to mix up 5 gallon quantities in the bucket. I use a piece of pvc as a stir rod

I don't know if its been mentioned but do you run your fuge on a reverse cycle? That helps a bunch. The larger the ball of cheato the more it heps... Mine has grown to about 60 gallons of cheato and that stabilized things a bunch. I saw that you are degassing the co2 from your intake air for your skimmer so that helps too.

Whats your Alk at? I find running mine 9.3 dKh to 9.6 dKh lets me keep my ph at about 8.05 to 8.1 during the day and I only drop to 7.93-7.95 at night (now that the cheato is buffering hard). If I don't flush the air in the fishroom every 4 hours I find the co2 builds and the ph starts to creep down.

 

[EnglishRebel]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15162779#post15162779 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Lightsluvr
Have you calibrated your PH meter recently?

That seems like a lot of dosing with no appreciable change...

LL

Calibrated it last week. Spot on when put back in 7.0 solution and Hanna portable reads pretty close (7.7 versus 7.65).

 

[EnglishRebel]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15162779#post15162779 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Lightsluvr
Have you calibrated your PH meter recently?

That seems like a lot of dosing with no appreciable change...

LL

Calibrated it last week. Spot on when put back in 7.0 solution and Hanna portable reads pretty close (7.7 versus 7.65).

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15162851#post15162851 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by WaterKeeper

Alan, do you think that
base rock may be the problem for the pH issues? If it was leaching an acidic compound into the tank it might be the cause. That is rare as artificial rock usually makes the pH go up not down. Just a thought.

Tom
I don't have artificial rock only cured LR, Eco Rox (which is fully dried Fiji rock), and some fully bleached rock from Florida. The Eco Rox had purple and green algae on it when it came and started to color more when it went in the fuge several months ago. I guess it could be the Eco Rox.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15163745#post15163745 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wmilas
Try the Soda Ash. I have the same problems in my large tank. Kalk is pretty much useless for me as the boost I get from the soda ash is much, much greater. I set up an automatic 3 part doser as a Calcium reactor would really poleaxe my Ph... I don't even want to think about it.

I use 3 5 gallon seal-able buckets (reef crystals) with the lids drilled for output tubing and a vaccum break. I use the Reefmedic doser for the dosing.

I made most of my reagents at first but it soon became a pain in the *** for the quantities I use. I just buy them now from bulk reef supply as their prices are extremely reasonable. Its fast to mix up 5 gallon quantities in the bucket. I use a piece of pvc as a stir rod

I don't know if its been mentioned but do you run your fuge on a reverse cycle? That helps a bunch. The larger the ball of cheato the more it heps... Mine has grown to about 60 gallons of cheato and that stabilized things a bunch. I saw that you are degassing the co2 from your intake air for your skimmer so that helps too.

Whats your Alk at? I find running mine 9.3 dKh to 9.6 dKh lets me keep my ph at about 8.05 to 8.1 during the day and I only drop to 7.93-7.95 at night (now that the cheato is buffering hard). If I don't flush the air in the fishroom every 4 hours I find the co2 builds and the ph starts to creep down.

wmilas
To answer your questions in order:
I do have the three part from BRS and a Profilux dosing pump and started out dosing ALK (Soda Ash) but didn't really get into it as I thought I should bring the PH up to a reasonable level and then start the BRS dosing to maintain it. However before that I was trying PH buffer but I was advised to let things settle down before I started down the chemical alley (wasn't he a wanted Iraqi ).

I don't run my fuge on reverse and recently added a softball size Cheato ball.

I did run fresh air from outside to my skimmer for about three days and the PH went up by about 0.02 (insignificant). I've had replies from Randy over in Chemistry that CO2 is the problem but really -- if that was the case then every reefer would have low PH as the great majority of us have typical houses. Mine's not tight like some newer construction.

I made a jug full of fresh SW (Reef Crystals) and PH was 8.1. Seems as though as soon as it goes in the tank it lowers.

My recent readings were:
Calcium: 420
Magnesium: 1200
Hardness: 12.8 dKh

My equipment room is fairly tight and hot. I do have a ERV but when I was going down the CO2 route I had the window open 24 hours a day (back in April) but this was before I got my DT up and running and was only running a fuge and sump (my PH has been low from day 1).

The more I think about it, the more I like WaterKeepers idea that it may be the Eco Rox leaching something as I had this in the fuge from day one. Only time will tell.

 

[EnglishRebel]

I think my PH is slowly coming up. I increased the dosing of lime water to 200mL/hour and this morning it's up to 7.78 and it has been as low as 7.56. I found out that you cannot mix more than about two teaspoons per gallons as the rest will not dissolve. I thought because I was dosing as opposed to using it for top off I should increase the concentration. However the mixture was very milky indicating that the rest was precipitating.

 

[WaterKeeper]

I think I mentioned that Alan in a earlier post. Limes solubility is limited and you can only get a little under 7 grams per gallon (a heaping tablespoonful or two) into solution. You can only feed more solution not add more lime into the solution to get the pH to climb. Sounds like you are making progress and a pH of 7.8, or above, is of little concern in most tanks.