Female wrasses turning male

[YKTea]

I would like to hear your experiences with this. From what I gather, it seems as though everyone has had issues with this happening.

I on the other hand have been lucky and have kept many pairs with the corresponding female successfully for years.

I've had a spawning pair of bathyphilus for 2 years and now a pintail pair with the female staying very female for months.

I think if you are keeping 1-2 species with its female it's fine. But I notice the changing starts happening when there are too many species being mixed in large community tanks. Perhaps the male is too distracted keeping the female suppressed with numerous other wrasses, and the female takes the opportunity to change.

So far in my tank with one or two dedicated fairy species with their females, things go smoothly and the males interact with the females pretty well. Maybe Singapore water is full of estrogen

 

[Marshall O]

You may be on to something with having "too many" different species. My only M/F pair was a C. lubbocki pair. I bought them both as females, one turned male shortly after, and the female stayed female until she passed from disease after having her for over a year. The pair never spawned (at least I never saw them), but for almost the entire time they were the only two wrasses.

I will note that there may be some species where it seems it doesn't matter if there are multiple species or not; the females will turn either way. C. jordani is one obvious one that comes to mind.

 

[YKTea]

A female will only stay female if the environmental circumstances allows it. In the wild multiple females group together loosely and are dominated by a few very aggressive males that defend their ground and boasts mating rights. In the tanks there are numerous things going on that may allow females go start morphing. Perhaps lack of a dominant figure suppressing it.

Here's another thing. Initial phased males are often very similar almost identical looking to female wrasses. These are fully functional males but are never brightly colored or strong enough to fight with terminal males for mating rights. They are however opportunistic and may sneak up on a spawning accent to release Gametes. These IP males are also very opportunistic and can change to fully terminal males quite quickly. There is a possibility that many "females" are actually IP males and as such all end up changing. However with a strong enough pressurizing force from a very dominant male, IP males will stay IP males and female lookin.

Usually, As soon as a female or IP male starts morphing, there's v little to stop it. Often times they can sense when the dominant male is weakened or being bullied by another fish and they will take the chance to change. In time even overpowering the existing male. A true M/F pair may spawn in captivity as seen in the YouTube video of flame wrasses spawning.
However a seemingly M/F pair with the female being an IP male in disguise will never spawn. That's not to say that pairing will not work. If the male is dominant enough it will occasionally display to the IP and suppress it from changing. Until an opportunity arises to overthrow the leader.

Feel free to Correct me if any info above is wrong.

 

[evolved]

You're correct in the above.

And you may be onto something with the theory of too much going on the tank for dominance to be dominating enough, if you will.

I've often wondered if reflections come into play too. I have a "pair" of nahackyi in which the male never showed any interest in the female, yet was constantly interested in defending himself against his own reflection. And of course, the female is now sub-male.

Here's another monkey wrench for you. I've had pairs which have spawned for months before, yet the females end up transitioning anyway at a later date. I've known other hobbyist which have experienced the same. Notably, I had a pair of johnsoni's which spawned almost every night for months. Along the way, I added another female (definitely female too; she was a tiny juvi). I now have two terminal males (one of which was the original female) and one sub-male.

Yet I have a pair of H. timorensis which have always been a true m/f pair, and they act like it. I'd be shocked if this ever changed.

So it's a matter of genus too. What we're talking about here is quite unique to Cirrhilabrus and Paracheilinus; the "herematic" genera.

Any more, I strive to only obtain a single specimen of any given species. Male or small juvi (even better); it doesn't matter much - they'll be a terminal male in time amongst all the others.

 

[SDguy]

I only had a harem of flame wrasses in my tank, with a single lubbocks as the only other wrasse, so the theory didn't hold true for me, but maybe flame wrasses are notoriously extreme examples.

 

[Marshall O]

I only had a harem of flame wrasses in my tank, with a single lubbocks as the only other wrasse, so the theory didn't hold true for me, but maybe flame wrasses are notoriously extreme examples.

I assume you mean the theory didn't hold in that they all turned male. If so, then yes as I mentioned, they are well known to turn male even when the only wrasse species AFAIK.

 

[SDguy]

I think if you are keeping 1-2 species with its female it's fine. But I notice the changing starts happening when there are too many species being mixed in large community tanks. Perhaps the male is too distracted keeping the female suppressed with numerous other wrasses, and the female takes the opportunity to change.

Yes, I was referring to this theory^^^

 

[YKTea]

Interesting inputs everyone.

Currently I have a pintail x lunatus hybrid (male) and brunneus (male) as well as a pintail (male). These three are kept with 3 tiny females (all pintail females since lunatus and brunneus females are v hard to get).

In the wild these species are found mixed together and thus hybrids are formed. Currently the males display to the females and each other daily. I will monitor the females closely to see if any morph into males.

 

[YKTea]

You're correct in the above.

And you may be onto something with the theory of too much going on the tank for dominance to be dominating enough, if you will.

I've often wondered if reflections come into play too. I have a "pair" of nahackyi in which the male never showed any interest in the female, yet was constantly interested in defending himself against his own reflection. And of course, the female is now sub-male.

Here's another monkey wrench for you. I've had pairs which have spawned for months before, yet the females end up transitioning anyway at a later date. I've known other hobbyist which have experienced the same. Notably, I had a pair of johnsoni's which spawned almost every night for months. Along the way, I added another female (definitely female too; she was a tiny juvi). I now have two terminal males (one of which was the original female) and one sub-male.

Yet I have a pair of H. timorensis which have always been a true m/f pair, and they act like it. I'd be shocked if this ever changed.

So it's a matter of genus too. What we're talking about here is quite unique to Cirrhilabrus and Paracheilinus; the "herematic" genera.

Any more, I strive to only obtain a single specimen of any given species. Male or small juvi (even better); it doesn't matter much - they'll be a terminal male in time amongst all the others.

My friend Digiman also had the same issue with his Johnsoni. Both started out as 1 inch female. One morphed to terminal with streamers and everything and stayed like that for a long time.

The terminal male got harassed by a new fish after that and the female took opportunity to change into terminal male. It killed the old terminal male and lived alone. He eventually sold it.

 

[YKTea]

This is also very applicable to the genicanthus genus where on the other hand, males are notorious for turning back to females even when kept as pairs or groups.

My theory with too much going on in the tank also seems to hold for this genus. In a peaceful tank with the male geni being the only big fish, it probably stands more chance of staying male. But I think for genicanthus, a Lek system applies more fittingly than a haremic one, and perhaps that plays some part in the male-female interaction.

 

[MikeandNicole]

I have an earlie pair and the female is turning male. I have a flame pair and so far so good but it is extremely early on them.

 

[eatbreakfast]

I too have noticed this, when female Cirrhilabrus, Paracheilinus, and Halichoeres wrasses are kept with congeners, they turn male relatively quickly. I suspect that Evolved's H. timorensis pr stayed male female because there are no other Halichoeres wrasses in the tank.

Interestingly, I have noticed that Pseudojuloides wrasses have a tendency to revert back to females when kept with conspecifics and congeners, so that they all end up female with no male.

I have also seen no change fully take place with a couple of specimens where not much was going on. An example of this is a store near me has 4'x4' coral sale tanks. In one of these tanks there was a female Macropharyngodon meleagris, and a female Halichoeres marginatus. They were the only 2 fish in the tank for 4+ yrs, yet neither developed male coloration, though attaining full adult size for the species. When the staff tried to introduce juveniles/females of either species the new fish were attacked, but still no visible change in sex.

 

[evolved]

I suspect that Evolved's H. timorensis pr stayed male female because there are no other Halichoeres wrasses in the tank.

They were alongside a H. melanurus (male) for nearly 2.5 years before he perished. Although the two species paid little mind to another.