Forcible eviction of clownfish from anemones in the wild

[BonsaiNut]

For those people curious about the whole "how many clowns can I keep in a tank" here is an interesting paper that talks about family structure, recruitment and eviction in the wild.

Recruitment and forcible eviction

 

[Reefvette]

Thank you bonsai, this only helps my arguement that clowns in the wild dont live in pairs but in complex social structures that we can not mimic in our home aquarium.

Clowns show up as pairs in the wild but must times there are other clowns that will inhabit the anemone, even damsel fish as well.

 

[BonsaiNut]

True. I think it is pretty obvious that clowns don't just live in pairs in the wild, since many photos show them in groups. However it also shows that clowns are very sensitive to space and overcrowding. Probably the majority of home aquariums would be considered an "overcrowded" environment to them.

 

[Reefvette]

Thats why i keep my clowns in cubes with one other fish with them.

Once i get another mertens i may do a 30 x 30 by 18 tank for the mertens and a pair of gasters.

Thank you for article, im gonna give the whole thing a read tonight

 

[MM WI]

So the group is capable of getting out of the box when forced to anyway. I hope this post and a few previous threads put down for good the insistence that larger groups of clowns cannot be kept in the same tank as was the dogma in this group for years. Don't tell me that if someone had come in here and suggested putting eight to twelve same species small clowns in the same tank with one nem that that person would not have been shouted down.

I know the pair issue I am fighting now is a different question/issue so spare me the less than logical need to point this out as some pretender would definitely do - and may still.

I would suggest that a group that has been so definitely wrong about mult nems, and mult clowns, should be a bit more humble when discussing mult pairs.

- Mark

 

[Reefvette]

Im not sure who your comments are directed at but i would hope not me.

Escpecially since i have kept harem of clowns in a large mertens carpet and a crispa.

I do agree that mixing clowns pairs in one tank is not a long term situation.

Ime at some point dominance will playout and someoen will be forced out or killed.

As i hae saod in the past what happens in our tanks in no replicates nature. The above article shows that.

When you put two clown pairs in a tank you are replicated nature but you cant account for what happens when clowns mature and pairs become more aggressive.

Again this article sheds light on how much change there is.

It also makes me thing that luecokranos and theilli are def hybrids because there are harems of blue stripes and orange skunks mixed in anemonss. Who says a mature male orange skunk cant fertilize a part of a blue stripe clutch. Or vice vers

 

[phender]

I'm not sure you got the same info that I got from this article.

Here's what I got from it.

1. The bigger your anemone is the more clowns it can house. In the study, the anemones averaged 50 cm (~20") across. Those very large anemones housed an average of 140 mm (~5") of total fish. For A. percula that means a breeding pair and one to 3 really small sub-adults. Since most of the anemones we keep in our tanks are less than 20" across and since we don't see the really tiny clowns for sale often (unless you raise them yourself) a pair is probably all you are going to be able to keep in one anemone.

2. The anemones in the study were 30 meters apart. Now I have two spawning pairs (A. percula and A. sandaracinos) sharing one 4' tank with two different anemones, but this study certainly doesn't endorse keeping more than one pair in a tank, unless you have a tank that is 30 yards long.

3. Other than the breeding pair, the other members of the group are not static. Members of the group get evicted all the time regardless of their place in the hierarchy. On the reef those fish die whether from predation, stress or something else. I wouldn't call that a ringing endorsement for having more than a pair of clowns in one anemone. EDIT: sorry, they don't get evicted regardless of their place in the hierarchy. Lower ranking individuals get evicted more often. Still, the groups do not have a static membership.

We can manipulate all sorts of factors in our tanks that allow us to break some guidelines like not keeping more than one anemone species in a tank or not keeping groups of clowns together. However, from how I interpret this study, it seems that nature has stricter guidelines than we do.

 

[MM WI]

the take away is the dynamic is much more complex than how we present it. Behaviors that are influenced by age structure and on the habitat are not simple, single dimensional events that can be explained with dogma. Good point on what we can do in the tank. We can manipulate age structure and habitat in ways that do not occur in nature. So not likely stricter guidelines just the presents of someone manipulating the pieces like we do. I would bet we could find all kinds of interesting situations in the vast tropical reefs that would be new to us and food for thought.

- mark

 

[Anemone]

So the group is capable of getting out of the box when forced to anyway. I hope this post and a few previous threads put down for good the insistence that larger groups of clowns cannot be kept in the same tank as was the dogma in this group for years. Don't tell me that if someone had come in here and suggested putting eight to twelve same species small clowns in the same tank with one nem that that person would not have been shouted down.

I know the pair issue I am fighting now is a different question/issue so spare me the less than logical need to point this out as some pretender would definitely do - and may still.

I would suggest that a group that has been so definitely wrong about mult nems, and mult clowns, should be a bit more humble when discussing mult pairs.

- Mark

And I would suggest you limit your future posts to informational, rather than confrontational.

Kevin

 

[BonsaiNut]

So the group is capable of getting out of the box when forced to anyway. I hope this post and a few previous threads put down for good the insistence that larger groups of clowns cannot be kept in the same tank as was the dogma in this group for years. Don't tell me that if someone had come in here and suggested putting eight to twelve same species small clowns in the same tank with one nem that that person would not have been shouted down.

I know the pair issue I am fighting now is a different question/issue so spare me the less than logical need to point this out as some pretender would definitely do - and may still.

I would suggest that a group that has been so definitely wrong about mult nems, and mult clowns, should be a bit more humble when discussing mult pairs.

- Mark

I have no idea who this is directed at, or what this is about. Understand that this scientific paper doesn't discuss multiple pairs in the slightest - it actually deals with one species (A. percula) and investigates how clowns will accept or reject additional individuals based on environmental conditions - particularly size of host anemone.

 

[BonsaiNut]

Here is another paper that covers the same subject from a slightly different perspective - and deals with my favorite anemone, S. gigantea:

Carrying Capacity of S. gigantea with the False Clown Anemonefish

Note that NEITHER of these papers talks about multiple pairs in a small area. In fact, this paper specifically mentions how a family group of clowns "monopolizes" a section of reef.

 

[hypnoj]

following

 

[WaffleWalffle22]

Thanks so much for sharing! While I was hesitant to read it, being so long, I got some great info from it and phender's post really helped sum it all up.

The manipulation thing interested me. I never knew clowns felt overcrowded with just a few other tankmates. I hate most... well, actually... I hate all fish except clowns, jaws and litterally one or two others. I have two tanks with just clowns and my other tank has clowns and a friendly wrasse.

From reading the studies and observations, I'm getting that the key to success of keeping groups of clowns is to have immense numbers of them (around 30 or more) and lots of anemones so they aren't saturated. Could that be correct?

Best read in a long time. Thanks again.