***Fragged my Heteractis Magnifica***
- Thread starter AD87
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serpentman
part time superhero
Here's an updated pic taken today of one of the daughters. The other is doing well. However, I can't get a good pic where its footed.
elegance coral
They call me EC
Looking great!!!!:thumbsup:
Well, I did it. One of my mags has been trying to split for a month and a half, to two months. It's continually losing mass and going down hill. This morning it was stretched tight between two rocks, so I took a razor blade and sliced through it. I probably should have done this sooner. IDK. It was obvious it wouldn't survive in its predicament, so cutting it was a last ditch effort. Hopefully it survives.
Well, I did it. One of my mags has been trying to split for a month and a half, to two months. It's continually losing mass and going down hill. This morning it was stretched tight between two rocks, so I took a razor blade and sliced through it. I probably should have done this sooner. IDK. It was obvious it wouldn't survive in its predicament, so cutting it was a last ditch effort. Hopefully it survives.
Conrad25
New member
Wow, just got my first mag, but interested to see you fragged it and the survival is looking optimistic. Maybe some day in the next few years I will be gutsy enough to try it out, but right now mine is so tiny and on the recovery path.
EC, heard about that at one point before from you on some thread. Hope it all turns out good which I think it will in your system
Conrad
EC, heard about that at one point before from you on some thread. Hope it all turns out good which I think it will in your system
Conrad
i think most of us know how slow mags' natural splitting process is and the risks of fragging. and you are well aware the possible benefits IF this sort of manual splitting works... IMHO we should take the useful data as it comes. Even bad results make for good data in the long run.
I could go further, but i would be preaching to the choir and derailing a thread.
BonsaiNut
Premium Member
Actually, I think a magnifica's natural splitting process is very fast indeed, to such an extent that on some reefs it is considered a pest. When you see magnificas in the wild, you are just as likely to see several together (likely clones) as one apart. It certainly isn't as if magnificas are uncommon in the wild - they just aren't collected for the marine ornamental trade because they are so LARGE.
Personally, I feel that magnificas are less likely to split in captivity because very few people can provide the proper environment for them. For people who have them in large tanks with good light and flow, splitting is a common occurrence.
I am just curious what people hope to learn by doing the same thing over and over again? Cut a magnifica in half. Sometimes it lives, sometimes it dies. Cut a magnifica in half. Sometimes it lives, sometimes it dies...
I guess it's better than when people cut a S. gigantea in half... always it dies. Cut a H. crispa in half... always it dies. Cut a M. doreensis in half... always it dies. I don't consider killing animals through ignorance as making "good data".
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This method may make more self-sufficient clones in a smaller area. Ultimately, this can make propagation more sustainable. We don't have sufficient information on manual split success rates to make any assumptions on how often clones will die.
Let’s say one were to let the process go naturally. Is it fool proof either? The most experienced and professional reef keepers have had entire tank population’s crash. Large, established magnificas have been killed by simple blunders (before they could clone naturally).
If my clones live, I’ll give one to someone I trust. If i go away for a vacation only to come back to a dead tank my mag will still be alive somewhere else.
Who knows how long some bta strains will live? The risk of death has been divided out among hundreds of tanks all over the country.
BonsaiNut
Premium Member
You miss the point of my question. All people are doing is the same thing over and over. No one is attempting to learn from their experience, or the experience of others, to advance the state of learning, or improve success rates. Right now, the most "advanced" method of "fragging" magnificas requires a bucket and a knife. There is no attempt to try to control variables and test the efficacy of different approaches.
Personally, I think it is a lazy and irresponsible approach that kills a lot of animals for no purpose other than idle curiosity and greed.
People TALK a big game about how they are trying to improve the environment, or how they want to save anemone strains for the future, etc. But the reality is that what they actually DO is very different from this. I judge people on their actions, not their words.
This is not intended to be a personal attack on you. Rather I WISH that people would start to try to better understand sexual and asexual reproduction of anemones, rather than to continue to treat them like zooanthids or corallimorphs.
serpentman
part time superhero
I can see both points. Folks that have successes or failures should be comparing more notes on water chemistry, lighting, system inhabitants, feeding regimen, etc. However, to insinuate that cutting is irresponsible or lazy would be painting things with a brush that is much to broad. In an age where legislators are gunning for our hobby, we will begin to see stringent restrictions on imports in the near distant future. Therefore, all efforts should be on captive propagation in a manner that would somewhat be consistent with demand. IMO, simply waiting for them to produce naturally is not a practical alternative given their overall size and time required.
FWIW, in my limited experience, I have noticed a couple of things that seem to contribute to overall health.
First, I rarely feed any of my anemones. In fact, they probably eat every 6+ weeks. Ultimately, I seem to notice much more natural behaviors (i.e. bubble tips stay "bubbled"). Growth seems pretty good even in spite of the lack of feeding.
Second, there are clowns present for all my nems. In addition to obvious lighting, I believe their waste is what sustains the nems between feedings.
FWIW, in my limited experience, I have noticed a couple of things that seem to contribute to overall health.
First, I rarely feed any of my anemones. In fact, they probably eat every 6+ weeks. Ultimately, I seem to notice much more natural behaviors (i.e. bubble tips stay "bubbled"). Growth seems pretty good even in spite of the lack of feeding.
Second, there are clowns present for all my nems. In addition to obvious lighting, I believe their waste is what sustains the nems between feedings.
BonsaiNut
Premium Member
Here's the issue. No one knows the success rate of manually fragging H. magnifica, but it appears to be 50% or lower - among those aquarists who know what they are doing. Unfortunately, we tend to hear about successes much more frequently than failures. Just like the title of this thread - people tend to trumpet success "I fragged my H. magnifica" before that success is a reality. I have yet to see (in this thread) photos of two fully healed individuals (though I hope eventually this will be the case). So to post about your success before it happens is irresponsible.
But worse, is that people don't always read all the content in these threads. They skip over or scan the posts, and then think "hey, I can do that TOO". So they cut THEIR magnificas in half, and now we have a BUNCH of dead anemones. That is both irresponsible AND lazy. Worse - they cut their S. giganteas in half (failure rate 100%), or their H. crispas (failure rate 100%), or their M. doreensis in half (failure rate 100%).
I also disagree with your comment about the "time required" for anemones to asexually reproduce. Somehow you made the intuitive leap that if an anemone isn't ready to naturally split, that forcing it to split is a better alternative. Did you ever stop to think that when an anemone asexually reproduces that it prepares itself beforehand? That it takes steps to improve the odds of the two pieces surviving? That it creates internal structures prior to replication that do not exist if you just chop an anemone in two?
And as for space required - come on
Have you ever seen a professional breeding setup for clowns? I have seen entire BASEMENTS set up for breeding clowns - to say nothing about the pros down in Florida with greenhouses and huge outdoor vats full of greenwater. You could reproduce H. magnifica easily in a 4x8 shallow breeder setup - in your garage or basement. People are just "lazy" in that they are used to reproducing $1,000's of SPS frags in a 40 gallon breeder. No, that you can't do with H. magnifica, I agree.So here's the REAL lazy part. People don't even TRY to understand the biology of these creatures before they start cutting them up. They don't read any papers. They don't read any books. They rarely read an Internet forum. They just cut. And THAT is what saddens me the most.
I agree that clown anemones don't need supplemental feeding if they have healthy zooxanthellae and appropriate lighting. In fact, it has been shown that anemones in a closed system can grow from dime-size to adult size with no direct supplemental feeding whatsoever. However, it has also been shown (scientific study) that they grow more quickly with supplemental feeding. Additionally, it appears that high levels of supplemental feeding can trigger/increase sexual and asexual reproduction rates.
Presence of clowns has a marked positive impact on growth rate of anemones in the wild (scientific study). It is believed that clown waste provides fertilizer for anemone zooxanthellae, versus feeding the anemone directly.
By the way, did you know that anemones with the greatest reliance on zooxanthellae have the strongest stings? They have very weak spirocysts (grabbing cells) but very strong nematocysts (stinging cells). Interesting that anemones with the strongest stings are actually less dangerous for fish.
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Ron Popeil
Love them clownfish.
bonsai, i saw in another thread you noted the quadrants and symmetry of an anemones internal structure. likewise, i would agree with your statement about an anemone internally preparing itself to asexually split. i wonder if the species of anemones that do split naturally, if they are almost always "semi ready" for this proceedure or if it is a spontaneous conditional response. im sure this is just a hypothesis streaming from a hypothesis, but what are your thoughts on that?
regarding the quadrants you mentioned, could that provide any information on a more precise area to cut?
regarding the quadrants you mentioned, could that provide any information on a more precise area to cut?
serpentman
part time superhero
Considering the dark ages of the 80's and early 90's, we've come light years. Just think, 15+ years ago we would be arguing on how to simply keep them alive longer than a month. However, I can't help but sense a distinct hint of pretentiousness that you are so quick to assume that anyone attempting to bisect these anemones without establishing a control group is lazy or irresponsible.
You are failing to mention is there is a gross difference between hobbyist aquaculture and marine biology. I would argue that most hobbyists are ill prepared to establish an adequate control group let alone a detailed scientific study to differentiate between asexual reproduction and human induced asexual reproduction. Therefore, any "study" being done here would not be deemed scientifically appropriate.
FWIW, here are the two daughter nems in the same shot. Also please note these were produced from a daughter of a previous split. 1 of the 2 survived the initial cutting. However, I would argue number 2 did not die from the splitting but by human error as I put it in a brand new setup that hand not been adequately cycled.
You are failing to mention is there is a gross difference between hobbyist aquaculture and marine biology. I would argue that most hobbyists are ill prepared to establish an adequate control group let alone a detailed scientific study to differentiate between asexual reproduction and human induced asexual reproduction. Therefore, any "study" being done here would not be deemed scientifically appropriate.
FWIW, here are the two daughter nems in the same shot. Also please note these were produced from a daughter of a previous split. 1 of the 2 survived the initial cutting. However, I would argue number 2 did not die from the splitting but by human error as I put it in a brand new setup that hand not been adequately cycled.
BonsaiNut
Premium Member
If I come across as being pretentious, it is not my intent. However over the years as I have witnessed people doing the same things and making the same mistakes (at the cost of the lives of their animals) perhaps you can excuse me if I come off sounding a little shrill
You talk about 15+ years ago and the state of the aquarium hobby. The truth is that 20 years ago I was keeping these anemones in captivity just fine, as were others that I knew in the Chicago area. The most current reference book on anemones is 20 years old. With the advent of the Internet, you would expect people to be learning and advancing at an almost exponential rate. Why not with anemone reproduction?
Dr. Anna Scott has released papers on every step required to sexually reproduce E. quadricolor and H. crispa. Why has no one tried to set up an aquaculture system to replicate her success? I am researching currently to try to do the same with S. gigantea. Wouldn't it be great if one person on the planet was trying to sexually reproduce anemones with the resources typically available to a hobbyist instead of the dozens whose approach to anemone reproduction is to whip out a knife?
Point is - the majority of people don't even try. There is almost a macho attitude out there "look I cut my anemone in half - I wonder if it will recover".
Here's the issue. No one knows the success rate of manually fragging H. magnifica, but it appears to be 50% or lower - among those aquarists who know what they are doing. Unfortunately, we tend to hear about successes much more frequently than failures.
I also disagree with your comment about the "time required" for anemones to asexually reproduce. Somehow you made the intuitive leap that if an anemone isn't ready to naturally split, that forcing it to split is a better alternative. Did you ever stop to think that when an anemone asexually reproduces that it prepares itself beforehand? That it takes steps to improve the odds of the two pieces surviving? That it creates internal structures prior to replication that do not exist if you just chop an anemone in two?
And as for space required - come on
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I believe we agree that no one knows the success rate. 50% survival is your personal observation so I cannot argue whether you are right or wrong.
Yes, I do think mags take steps in order to get ready for asexual reproduction IF they ever do asexually reproduce.
There just isn't any incentive for the mag propagation your suggesting. How do I know this? Because it isn't being done. You praise clown breeding basements but they are expecting a return just like coral propagation (or at least to break even). You call a 40 gallon breeder filled with thousands of dollars worth of frags "lazy", but it just has more incentive. More incentive is exactly what magnifica needs for long lasting propagation throughout the country.
Again I'm not saying this is a fool proof method. But it should be attempted, and results recorded.
You say it is unfortunate that we tend to hear about successes much more frequently than failures. I feel phrases like "you people splitting your' H. magnificas", "Did you ever stop to think? " and "come on
I don't wish to argue any more. It won't serve any purpose other than derailing further. We all are entitled to our own opinions.
serpentman
part time superhero
I would argue that the sheer amount of data available on the Internet is exactly why this hobby doesn't always grow exponentially. There's too much data and its very difficult to discern which is correct. Secondly, pointing to the scientific community for answers isn't always the answer as often scientists cannot reach a uniform consensus.
Referencing the moral implications of cutting anemones, let's all be brutally honest, we are all hypocrites to a certain extent. If we really cared as much as many would portray themselves as doing, we would leave these animals where they have the best chance of survival...the ocean. The minute we pluck any of these organisms from their native habitat, we are unnecessarily risking their lives. So taking the moral ground of "thou shall not split anemones" could easily be countered by saying thou shall not keep them in the first place and so on. We're all guilty on some level...
Quite frankly, for anyone to pass judgment on another in this hobby is akin to saying, since I didn't steal as much as you, I'm better....
Referencing the moral implications of cutting anemones, let's all be brutally honest, we are all hypocrites to a certain extent. If we really cared as much as many would portray themselves as doing, we would leave these animals where they have the best chance of survival...the ocean. The minute we pluck any of these organisms from their native habitat, we are unnecessarily risking their lives. So taking the moral ground of "thou shall not split anemones" could easily be countered by saying thou shall not keep them in the first place and so on. We're all guilty on some level...
Quite frankly, for anyone to pass judgment on another in this hobby is akin to saying, since I didn't steal as much as you, I'm better....
serpentman
part time superhero
Well said. Since the arguing is a matter of opinion, I doubt anyone's mind will be changed. Therefore, I will limit my contributions to providing updates as to how the two nems develop. Once they are ready, I'm sure they will be split again.
BonsaiNut
Premium Member
Thanks Ron. I actually have an email in to Dr. Shick asking a related question that I think gets to the same point. My question was about the symmetry of GROWTH of an anemone. Given that every anemone is really four symmetrical pieces, it follows that all pieces must grow at the same rate and in the same manner, in order to maintain that symmetry. An anemone doesn't grow ONE row of tentacles at a time, it grows FOUR - one in each quadrant. Likewise, it raises interesting questions about how an anemone responds to damage to one of its quadrants.
Switching subjects slightly, I think for fraggers more attention could be spent on the siphonoglyphs and artificial ways to trigger asexual reproduction.
The siphonoglyphs are the little grooves at the edges of the oral cavity (mouths) of all anemones. Most anemones have two - one at each end of the oral cavity. (If you think about anemone symmetry, the siphonoglyphs are what define the directive axis of the anemone - the main axis of symmetry). They are covered with ciliated cells which provide a constant flow of water to the interior of the anemone even when the mouth is closed. They are how an anemone breathes, and how it maintains internal water pressure which gives an anemone its structural integrity.
Given the importance of siphonoglyphs, I would think (total hypothesis coming) that you would have to be really careful about maintaining the integrity of the siphonoglyphs when cutting an anemone in half. The first thing an anemone does when cut is to curl inwards upon itself. If the siphonoglyph is covered or blocked, the anemone will have a much harder time breathing and maintaining water pressure. Certainly an anemone "frag" that did not contain even one siphonoglyph (or half of one) would have an uphill battle in terms of trying to grow one before it died...
Additionally, I have been thinking about "forcing" asexual reproduction by creating pressure on the anemone without cutting it. This is based on a study that I read that linked asexual reproduction of H. magnifica with lateral stress on the base of the anemone due to moving rocks - the anemone was slowly being pulled apart while being affixed to two or more base rocks. I wonder if placing a band around the middle of an anemone - perpendicular to the directive axis with the siphonoglyphs to either side - and slowly tightening it over some period of time would cause the anemone to trigger its own asexual reproduction?
If someone found any value in this approach, it would be interesting to see how the anemone responds. The good news is that this approach might not be irreversible - i.e. if the anemone started to stress too badly, you could always just remove the band.
By the way - I am ONLY talking about clown anemones that asexually reproduce with any rate of frequency - specifically H. magnifica and E. quadricolor. I really believe that the route to success with other clown anemone species is sexual reproduction.
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