Global warming?

Status
Not open for further replies.
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12370269#post12370269 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by samtheman

Why, because we allow unchecked population growth
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12370269#post12370269 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by samtheman
until we face the real problem and quit treating the symptoms.
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12371207#post12371207 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by samtheman

as the population pressure mounts.
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12371207#post12371207 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by samtheman
face the true problem.
I see a common thread to some of your opinions. Will you please explain just what you mean by "the real problem" and just what you think should be done about "unchecked population growth"? I assure you I am not asking ready to pounce on your answer. :)
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12371207#post12371207 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by samtheman
See there you go again. The reason aluminum and steel cans are recycled is that it makes economic sense. The environmental movement has nothing to do with it. The other products make no economic sense and so are not recycled.
Your logic is wrong on power. If you think there are enough places for windmills and solar panels, you are not being honest with yourself. Additionally, they do not reduce the load on the grid because they cannot be counted on when there is no wind or light. You need some way to store energy before these methods will help much at all.

Now tell me about bio-fuels and how great they are.

Finally, if you really fear CO2 then the only feasible approach is nuclear. But it has been the object of so much attention from the Environmental Movement that you can't build them anymore. Your best bet, and you killed it.

Conservation makes sense, if it solves the problem. But it does not, it just keeps the sick animal alive for a little longer, as the population pressure mounts.

You seem willing to tell me how to live my life, why don’t you feel the same way about telling people to quit having kids. There is a finite amount of resources, and if you are willing to let them be squandered, don’t tell me how I should live if you are afraid to face the true problem.

Absolutely, wasn't claiming it was anything but. Some recycled products do not make too much sense, but maybe in the future.

Actually my logic on power is correct. The is plenty of room for Solar Thermal power. This makes far more sense than nuclear and provides load following power now and will provide base load power very soon. I do believe that we should continue research into nuclear power however the nuclear power industry currently needs putting out of its misery.

What about bio-fuels? if its done right it can be a good source of liquid power, if it is done poorly it will only worsen the situation.

I wont touch your ideas on conservation.

Your last paragraph I am clueless about. Are you confusing me with someone else?
 
Please explain your bias on nuclear power. I don't understand your point.

I knew you would not respond on the population issue. Nice cop-out.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12371587#post12371587 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by virginiadiver69
I see a common thread to some of your opinions. Will you please explain just what you mean by "the real problem" and just what you think should be done about "unchecked population growth"? I assure you I am not asking ready to pounce on your answer. :)

I think Sam is lobbying for Futurama style suicide booths ;)
 
All this talk that renewables like wind and solar cant help or work is quite frankly cr*p.

Here in the UK we have enough off shore wind (excluding tidal and wave) to get 3,213 terrawatt hours of elecrticity which is over 8 times our total electricty demand. This info is from a UK government paper done in 2005 called "Offshore renewables- the potential resource".

What makes this even more astonishing is that the 'proposed strategic regions' are all of the coast of England,excluding the seas of Scotland,Northern Irealand and Wales,whcih is where the wind is generally stronger!
 
It wouldnt be 100% from wind. But the report stated it could form 50-75% of the UK's total electricty. Which is alot from just the coasts of england,not including the windiest areas like scotland and irealand.

It's always windy somewhere in the British isles.


So for people to dispell it,is really very short sighted. 50-75% is alot.
 
Plans to construct one of Europe's largest onshore wind farms has been refused by the Scottish Government.

It said Lewis Wind Power's (LWP) 181-turbines for Lewis on the Western Isles did not comply with European law protecting sensitive environments.

The scheme had the backing of the local authority and business, but attracted almost 11,000 objections.

LWP said it was "bitterly disappointed" with the decision and said the farm would have created hundreds of jobs.

Scottish ministers decided the project would have a serious impact on the Lewis Peatlands Special Protection Area, which is designated under the European Commission (EC) Birds Directive and protected under the EC Habitats Directive.
 
Yes,the amount of opposition to wind farms is disgusting i think. I'm sure if you were to ask these opposers about climate change they would either say "whats that?" or "oh global warming,im looking forward to warmer summers" or some other brain dead response.

The MOD are opposing another propose wind farm in the Humber Estuary,saying it will interfere with there radars.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12375645#post12375645 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by samtheman
Nice adult reaction.

It's called humor, aka a joke ;)
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12373127#post12373127 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by samtheman
Please explain your bias on nuclear power. I don't understand your point.

I knew you would not respond on the population issue. Nice cop-out.
I don't have bias on nuclear power, I have an opinion. Basically it is too expensive, to dirty, takes too long to implement, has too many security issues and is not needed.

What do you want me to say on the population issue? We have been over that in other discussions. Educate and empower women in underdeveloped and developing countries.

I really think you are too aggressive when you argue. Chill out and make conversation. Thats how we all learn.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12371501#post12371501 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by virginiadiver69
How did you take care of the situation? Did you have to call in the HAZMAT team? Did you at least follow the recomended disposal instructions that begin with evacuation of the room?

We came home to find the bulb destroyed (and a few other things), with evidence that it had happened much longer than 15 minutes ago, but we ventilated the room anyway. It was at a time of year that we didn't need either AC or heating, so those were off anyway. We followed the EPA and EnergyStar's recommendations for cleaning up.

We cleaned up the shards, vacummed it up the area for what we couldn't see, put the vacuum bag in a sealed plastic bag which we took the the hazardous waste collection (though that step wasn't actually required by the town we were living in at the time).

We were more concerned with our dog, so we called the vet and we called poison control. Per the vet's recommendation, we fed him a lot of bread, and keep close watch on how he was acting.

Dave
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12371207#post12371207 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by samtheman
You seem willing to tell me how to live my life, why don’t you feel the same way about telling people to quit having kids. There is a finite amount of resources, and if you are willing to let them be squandered, don’t tell me how I should live if you are afraid to face the true problem.

Who said I don't feel that way, or tell people that? I tend to avoid it here because, IME, it tends to ultimately turn into a religious/political discussion.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12367448#post12367448 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by samtheman
I you can't do better than that, why try?

I guess I just don't take such a defeatist attitude in my life.

Do I do more than most people? Yes. Do I do enough personally? Probably not. Will all these small efforts be enough? Probably not, but they're a start, and maybe they can delay the big problems long enough for us to figure out a real solution. It's difficult to get individuals or groups to make sudden, large sweeping changes to anything they do. That's why you start with small things, and then work up from there.

Dave
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12370269#post12370269 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by samtheman
I won't change my life or make any effort at all until we face the real problem and quit treating the symptoms.

So if we don't all do it your way, you're not going to do anything?
I guess an appropriate response would be: "Nice adult reaction".

Buy your new light bulbs and feel good about yourself while we thoroughly trash this planet.

Buying my new lightbulbs is also saving me money (especially since they've come down in price over the last several years). It's saving me the annoyance of having to change burnt out bulbs so frequently. It hasn't really required any significant effort on my part.
 
You say that someone should not drive an SUV. How about boating? How about recreation, such as camping, or fishing, or drag racing. If you own a boat and choose to waste energy in that fashion, how is that worse than having an SUV?
If you want or need to go out on the water or go flying you need a boat or a plane. Most people also don't do those things everyday. If you drive on the road everyday you don't need a 3 ton 4WD offroad vehicle. Most people I know with SUVs don't need the towing capacity or space of an SUV and even fewer have ever taken them offroad. If you need the features of an SUV regularly then fine, drive one. If you're a city driver though, there's no logical justification for driving one.

I'm 6'1 and have no problem fitting comfortably into a Civic. I also take it camping and on road trips with friends and there have only been two times during moves that I've ever needed more space than an Integra (my old car) offered.

Look at the amount of energy that goes into wine. Why not reduce your footprint and drink water?
We should shut down stadiums that are lighted. It would save gas if all those people stayed home.
Please stop with the straw men. No one is asking anyone to make huge sacrifices in quality of life and go back to the 18th century way of life. Small measures that reduce waste and inefficiency are all that's being asked. Do you derive joy from having cell phone chargers and transformers plugged in when they aren't being used? Or from pumping the air you paid to heat or cool out into the neighborhood? Can you tell the difference between clothes that were washed in 120 degree water vs 100 degrees? Does having the thermostat at 74 rather than 72 ruin your day? Doing little painless things can make a very real difference. In my case, about a 33% reduction in energy use.

Which by the way, I have used and instead of lasting years, many burnout in a few months.
I've been using them in various fixtures for about 4 years now, including some that were on 8 hrs a day and haven't had one go bad yet.

Also, they contain mercury. When I was in the metals business, I would have been fined for releasing the amount of mecury that is in one of those bulbs that I now throw in the trash so it can be land-filled.
How did you take care of the situation? Did you have to call in the HAZMAT team? Did you at least follow the recomended disposal instructions that begin with evacuation of the room?
All fluorescent lights contain mercury and CFs contain less than normal fluorescents. If they're disposed of properly none of it gets into the environment. If they aren't then the amount of mercury released, including the amount released to power the bulb for its entire life, is still much less than the amount it takes to power an incandescent for its lifetime. Who is using scare tactics?
 
Now we have global warming. It is considered to be fact. So ice breaks off in the antarctic and "boom" its global warming. No supportive evidence is needed. Drought, must be global warming. Record cold, well the bible of AGW says its from global warming, no further study is needed.
I see this all the time in the popular media, but I think you'd be sorely disappointed if you actually read the primary literature, because these arguments aren't being made there.

No, because if you are a good scientist, you calibrated your measuring equipment, ran controls, and had the experiment reproduced in a independent laboratory
Lets look at Mann's reconstruction. Was the data calibrated? Yes, known observational values were used to calibrate the reconstruction. The datasets used for the reconstruction were also calibrated themselves. Were there controls? For the proxy datasets, yes. For the original reconstruction, no, not in the experimental sense. It's a statistical analysis of data, not an experiment. Has it been independently reproduced? Multiple times.

The hypothetical hydrometer example also used calibration and independent verification to test the validity of the conclusion.

Half truths are half true.
That's true. It's also true that they're a type of logical fallacy. http://leo.stcloudstate.edu/acadwrite/logic.html

Yay! The drought is over. One of the severe consequences of AGW I understand.
Eh, no. AGW predicts changes in precipitation patterns. That includes floods and strong storms as well as drought.

So what your saying is, the breakup is a local weather phenomenon. And if I understand from your previous posts, local weather phenoms do not prove or disprove the theory of AGW. It is just "noise".
No. Local weather phenomena do not prove or disprove AGW. Local climate change doesn't either, but it can support it. A warming noted 15 years ago would put it on the timescale of climate rather than weather.

It's well documented that the rate of change and even the direction is spotty, especially around Antarctica. There is no reason to assume that the trend at one point is of the same magnitude or direction as a point 230 miles away. You would probably laugh at someone who told you that the climate in Atlanta was the same as Jacksonville, FL. They're roughly the same distances apart and the same latitudinal separation as the two points in Antarctica the author uses.
 
Additionally, they do not reduce the load on the grid because they cannot be counted on when there is no wind or light. You need some way to store energy before these methods will help much at all.
Small off-the-grid systems are viable for several days without wind or sun. I worked at a lab that got all of its energy from solar plus a single small turbine. There was a tropical storm over the area for 3 days, so no sun for the solar cells and winds too strong for the turbine to run. Still, by the end of the third day there was plenty of power to run a cafeteria, computer labs, aquaculture facility, and lodging for a few hundred people.

The power grid in most places is also already configured to allow sharing between areas with excess capacity and those with excess demand. Most of the population lives within a few miles of the coast anyway where there are much more constant sources of renewable energy such as waves, tides, currents, thermal gradients, and much more constant winds.

Conservation makes sense, if it solves the problem. But it does not, it just keeps the sick animal alive for a little longer, as the population pressure mounts.
I don't think anyone here believes that conservation is a cure to the problem. It's a way to buy time until we have viable cures to the real problems. We can try to buy time to come up with real solutions before we get to a tipping point or we can just continue with business as usual and be completely unprepared for what's next.

It sounds like your saying that incandescents contain mercury also...is that true?
No. Electricity production from fossil fuels releases mercury. When you add up the mercury content of the bulbs themselves and the amount of mercury released by the power to run the bulbs over their lifetime a CF bulb tossed in a landfill releases far less mercury to the environment than either an incandescent or standard fluorescent bulb.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top