Grading aquaculture clownfish

[trueblackpercula]

In the case of clowns, the genetic component for orange color is already there, but they need the proper food pigments (astaxanthin) to get them to wild caught color. In the early 90's Vibra-Gro (produced by a research facility later bought by Red Sea then by ORA and is not the same anymore) was one of the first foods to include astaxanthin in their mix. I was able to pick some up at a trade show before it was on the market. Most the stores in my area had stopped carrying CB clowns because their colors were so bad. Because I was using the Vibra-Gro you couldn't tell mine from WC and they were easy to sell.
Cyclop-eeze is one of the better foods on the market now to enhance the color of your baby/adult clowns, but many flake/pellet foods contain astaxanthin as well.

Valid points from both here...i have a perfect diet for clownfish if anyone is interested.

 

[WaffleWalffle22]

Valid points from both here...i have a perfect diet for clownfish if anyone is interested.

I'm interested. :eek1:

 

[Samcro]

what is it with everyone posting donis fish???? its like free advertising on the net at reefcentrals expense....am i the only one that sees what the hidden agend is

probably some person being goofy. Doni doesn't need the advertising to sell her clowns. her snow's sell out within minutes of posting them.


im interested in the diet as well!

 

[trueblackpercula]

well I hope everyone sells my picassos when there for sale i get my pair of ORA picassos friday...
here is the perfect diet got it years ago when i was a docent at the brooklyn aquarium.....Enjoy...just dont over do it with this stuff....its like steroids
300g capelin or none oil fish
300g clams
300g spinach
150g carrots
200g yeast powder
vitamine E 1.5g
vitamine C 5.5g
KI iodine
gelatin knox brand 500g
non sinking pellet food 2oz
fish roe 5oz
shrimp tails and body no heads 5oz
kelp meal
3 pills of b12,A,D
4 pills of astaxanthin
blend all the food together and then add the knox put in fridge and start using it after 24 hours. this amounts are for a large try so cut it down accordingly to suit your needs and enjoy......

 

[bues0022]

Wow. That's just completely wrong. I'm a molecular biologist by trade. Everything about "guppy" clowns is artificial selection. True, they have not been cloned or genetically modified. But they are still artificially selected. They are not found naturally in the wild.

So apparently my analogy was not the best.

The first picasso clownfish was wild caught, not captive bred. What about Onyx? You must know that there are many SI percs that show extreme black coloration. Certainly there isn't someone breeding clowns just to release them into the wild to be called "wild caught" :rolleye1: What you are calling artificial selection is what most others call line bred. If you need some examples of "wild caught 'guppy' clowns":

How about this one, just CAUGHT:
http://glassbox-design.com/2011/wild-picasso-clownfish/
video #11: http://wn.com/Picasso_Clownfish
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9167673
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=789151
http://web1.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1645856
http://************.com/2010/05/24/...islands-arrive-en-masse-at-blue-zoo-aquatics/
aberrant-amphiprion-percula-clownfish-from-the-solomon-islands-arrive-en-masse-at-blue-zoo-aquatics
http://www.rareclownfish.com/forums/f8/wild-caught-picasso-3105/
Here's a quote by Matt Pedersen (perhaps one of the most outspoken critics of the "guppy" clownfish) referencing wild caught picasso's, perhaps one of the most outspoken critics of the "guppy" clownfish about the above link:

"Would not be the first...I've seen a few others already."

And he has perhaps the most remarkable clownfish in his possession: http://www.lightning-maroon-clownfish.com/?tag=lightning-maroon-clownfish
Matt also has a maroon clownfish in his possession right now that is brown - does that qualify as a guppy?
This might help your understanding also: http://blog.aquanerd.com/2010/06/misconceptions-about-designer-fish.html
http://************.com/files/2010/07/PNG-maroon-clownfish-half-lightning1.jpg
PNG-maroon-clownfish-half-lightning1
I could keep going...

Give this fish a few years and a few offspring and everyone will be crying about this color pattern being the next "designer" or "mutant"

So, despite you attempting to boast your credintials to me about you knowing more about the genetic makeup of these designer fish, I will still again have to respectfully disagree that there is anything artificial about designer clownfish.

Have platinum percs been found in the wild? Not yet to my knowledge, but that doesn't mean they aren't out there. Until roughly a year ago the lightening maroon clownfish was only a whisper that someone had seen one once. Despite thousands of captive bred maroons, this hasn't been seen yet. I fail to understand how then, you can be OK with this clown, but not a platinum. Just because the right variables of natural selection lined up when the fish was in the wild makes it somehow magically better?

Yes, humans have altered the "natural" selection of clownfish to bring out color variations consumers find pleasing. It's called line breeding. Koi have been bred like this for thousands of years - complaints? How about our food? Unless you are only eating "heirloom" produce year round, you are guilty again of line breeding. Ever seen a horse, pet a dog, own a cat? again, all line bred to bring out traits and characteristics that humans find pleasing. I will be the first one to stand up and cry foul if I see a lime green clownfish - because that is artificial. Line bred fish will only display traits/characteristics that are already coded into their genetics - humans are helping bring them to the masses.

 

[WDLV]

I'm not interested in debating what is beautiful to a particular person's eye but I am interested in this concept of a rating system based on comparable WC norms.
I think that by now we have a pretty good idea of what comes from where and what the general appearance should be for that particular region.
Color Cut Clarity in diamonds equating to Color Shape and Health in clowns with a similar rating scale. If breeding "defects" are your thing, you can buy them cheap while "desirable defects" can be sold at a premium despite their irregularity.

 

[ezhoops]

i'm not interested in debating what is beautiful to a particular person's eye but i am interested in this concept of a rating system based on comparable wc norms.
I think that by now we have a pretty good idea of what comes from where and what the general appearance should be for that particular region.
Color cut clarity in diamonds equating to color shape and health in clowns with a similar rating scale. If breeding "defects" are your thing, you can buy them cheap while "desirable defects" can be sold at a premium despite their irregularity.

yeah buddy!!!

 

[deangelr]

Looks like we need some example of WC norms and grades.. There will always be some fish that have brighter bolder colors than others, this would be "grade A"

 

[WDLV]

For arguement's sake, let's say I bred A. thiellei and wanted to rate them on a 100 point scale. 25% for each of the following categories:

1. Breeding Anomolies
2. Body plan
3. Coloration and barring
4. Health

Because I detest math, lets say the cap was $100.00 for a "perfect" specamin.

Let's say one particular fish had the following defects:
1. Gill flare but no fin, eye, spine or upper jaw defects. (+20)
2. Parent species B body plan. (+18)
3. Excellent coloration but slight misbarring. (+18)
4. Perfect health. (+25)

Total = 81

0.81 x $100 = $81.00 Sale price.

I'm using A. thiellei because it's my personal favorite, there would likely be a lot of body plan and barring issues to sort out and because most readers are not as familiar with the species/hybrid which is exactly the boat most consumers would be in when buying their first clown... or diamond for that matter. The scale works to justify the price for the consumer and educates them on what they should use when comparison shopping.

Now lets use a species variant like "picassos." There could be an additional point system for the amount of abberant barring that would add percentage points to a 100 point scale so the fish would be rated at maybe 130% or 200% of the cap for A. percula.

I think you get the idea.... If I were successful in breeding these, this would be an excellent way to rate the offspring for the purpose of establishing sale prices and for scientific documentation purposes.

 

[trueblackpercula]

Ok lets see how easy this is going to be. I just bought the two picassos in this picture not the snow flakes but the picassos. what grading are you going to give these fish based on color shape ETC? just want to know how this is going to play out.

 

[deangelr]

Hmmm.. Like a lot of others have said I think the grading system would really be best implented or at least originally tested on WC type clowns. There is just too much opinion in the designer variations.

FWIW I would grade those percuala variations all in the "B" category.. They look very young so perhaps the colors will bolden up, but right now I would say those are quite bland..

 

[WDLV]

Well, given the scale I was suggesting, I'm gonna evaluate the larger of the two as it seems to be the worse of the two and as such will give more room for discussion....
1. It has upper jaw formation issues. So I'd say knock off 7 points for that and another 7 for bulging eyes (I'm a little unsure how severe this is or whether its just its size) putting it at around 11.
2. The body plan appears standard putting it at 25.
3. The orange coloration is a bit yellow and there's very little black in the marbling. So, I'd say knock off about 14 for that leaving you at 11.
4. I think they look a bit pale but that could just be stress from transport. So, I'm gonna leave it alone and give it a full 25.

You have an initial score of 77.
I would say perfect percs would go for about $50 a piece, so you're looking at a rate of about $38.50

Now I've seen awsome picassos go for about $400 a pair but it's been years since I priced them, so being liberal I'll cap them at about $200 a piece.... Which is about 300% more than the percula cap mentioned.
Because the marbling is pretty good and is likely to get even better but there is a lack of black currently showing I'd knock off about 25% for that putting your designer bonus of $150 at around $112.50.

So your percula rating plus the designer rating puts you around $151.00

Keep in mind, this is just a raw concept at this stage and my pricing may not be in line with current rates.

 

[Dan]

Speaking in general....Oh boy. Well, like it or not, some basic science terminology is going to be needed to get a grading system going. BonsaiNut started this thread mentioning the holotype. Start there. Someone experienced with a single species (and with the time) could begin putting together the basic holotype characteristics that breeders might be concerned with, e.g., stripe shape and width, body color, fin color, etc. (A. thiellei has WDLV's name written all over it ). Stick to the wild type characteristics. And by wild type I do not mean wild caught, but the consensus characteristics for the species. Artificially selected strains (not the same as line-breeding) can wait until later. It would be real nice to get breeders that have successfully produced wild type versions to do a dataset for their respective species (you know who you are). A dataset of common abnormalities should be created as well. Once the standard characteristics have been established for a given species, points can be added or deducted for abnormal traits. Stripes would probably be the least subjective, whereas color would be harder. Many shades of "pink". Just thinking out loud again.......

And BTW, I have nothing against "guppy" clowns (don't know where that came from). In fact, I think it is brilliant that someone has figured out how to turn a $20 clownfish into a $300 clownfish in only a few generations. This is a hobby. Like Copps says, keep what excites you. I just believe it will be harder to establish standards for these designer clowns than for the wild types. No reason to swing for the fences when you can hit lots of singles (30 of 'em).

Dan

 

[trueblackpercula]

well thank you for your grading and will post better pictures qhen i get them tomorrow. this picture was taken from the seller with tge lights out and he used a flash. i was told that they are about a year old so thet have not colored up fully yet. so i guess grading fish that a captive breed will also have to play a role here. if the fush is young it should get some points and as it reaches peak some more pounts until it gets older then it syarts loosing points. what does everyone else think?

 

[WDLV]

I agree. Age definately plays a factor with perculas in particular. Os tend to bar up and color up much earlier and we all know what age does to pricing at the LFS or even online. The larger "show piece" fish will always fetch more.

 

[LargeAngels]

A lot of good points have been brought up and I'm glad this thread was started. I think the first thing to concentrate on grading is physical shape/appearance, including stripes. Color will be a little harder as there are so many variants in nature. Look at the clarkii's for example.

Take the last two latz produced and sold. Karen's PERFECT!!! The other, dissapointing. I bought some of the first latz and I knew that they may not have full middle stripes and I was OK with that as I had a tank I wanted to put them in. Well, not only were they not fully striped, they had head/jaw deformities. Selling clowns for that price and not stating the physical deformities is wrong.

 

[BonsaiNut]

Well, not only were they not fully striped, they had head/jaw deformities. Selling clowns for that price and not stating the physical deformities is wrong.

This is why I think we may be better off with a couple of main categories with sub-grades. I keep hearing from people that color and striping is less important (at a top level) than lack of body flaws. In other words:

"A" grade is perfect body. Then you could have numbers about striping and color. For example "A1" might be perfect color and stripes - matching a "perfect" wild holotype. "A2" might be misbars or light color.

"B" grade mean minor body malformations. Things that might be physical (i.e. mild broken jaw or bulldog face) versus genetic.

"C" grade is substantial body malformations, but still "pet" grade. C grade is lowest grade that you would want to sell clowns, but it is important that the fish still are fully healthy and that whatever body malformation is present it does not impact the fish's ability to survive and thrive. It is important that "C" grade does not mean - sell any crap that swims. It has to meet a certain quality minimum quality level.

You could use this same scale for "fancy" clowns. The critical point is to agree on a gold standard for the best "fancy". For example, a Picasso need to meet a certain standard for striping, or it is an A2 Picasso - i.e. not quite up to highest standard.

This would make it very easy to know that if you order an "A2" clown the body will be perfect but the striping and color will not. Versus a "B1" clown would have perfect colors and stripes, but a minor crooked jaw. LargeAngels clowns would have been B2 or C2 clowns, depending on the extent of the body shape malformations.

 

[WDLV]

I think you and i are speaking the same language but different dialects. If you use the A, B, C, D and give each a rating of 25 points from greatest to least, it can translate into a cost formula. Which I think we're stating as the ultimate goal.

I'm just looking at deducting points for flaws.
A = 100% = No flaws
B = 75% = One flaw (Bulldog Face)
C = 50% = Two flaws (Bulldog Face + Gill Flare)
D = 25% = Three flaws (Bulldog FAce + Gill Flare + Crooked Spine)
E = 0% = Cull

The same can apply to color and barring.

 

[WDLV]

There has to be a little common sense used on severity as well. You can't sell fish that are completely missing the lower jaw or have exposed gills.

 

[WDLV]

Here's an example of a fish with a defect that can still be sold. Hybrids are like designer clowns in that there are a lot of "normal" variations that can be acceptable in a color and barring standpoint but are still fully desirable. However, they can still share the same basic scale as your run of the mill A. ocellaris. There just needs to be an added scale to cover the increase in cost for a desirable or rare specamin.

Bulldog face:

These had bad fins but were snapped up quickly on the retail side.