Grounding probes

[58merc]

Well, it sounds some people are just getting ticked off now including myself. This is my last reply on the subject.

This next bit only applys to a few people here.
A couple words of advice.
First, do the reserch and understand how the stuff works before posting about them. I was trying to be polite about that before but I guess were past that.
Second, read posted carfully, don't just skim!! People are putting some words in my mouth here.
Finally, I am just trying to help here folks, quite attacking me. I started posting in this tread by listing SOME of my credentials so people wouldn't think I was talking out of my rear, but it was obviosly taken the wrong way.

So, I'm done answering any electrical related questions here. Clearly there are some REAL experts on the subject and my input is not need.

 

[mcrist]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14068982#post14068982 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tmz
Hey Scott, The only thing with that installation is that when it trips everything is cut off from power not just the faulty appliance.

Yes that is true but the benefits of having multiple GFI’s are not that much better. If you have 4 outlets in a circuit and everyone is a GFI and the second one trips it will still take out outlet 2, 3 and 4.

 

[Michael]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14069011#post14069011 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by 58merc
Well, it sounds some people are just getting ticked off now including myself. This is my last reply on the subject.

This next bit only applys to a few people here.
A couple words of advice.
First, do the reserch and understand how the stuff works before posting about them. I was trying to be polite about that before but I guess were past that.
Second, read posted carfully, don't just skim!! People are putting some words in my mouth here.
Finally, I am just trying to help here folks, quite attacking me. I started posting in this tread by listing SOME of my credentials so people wouldn't think I was talking out of my rear, but it was obviosly taken the wrong way.

So, I'm done answering any electrical related questions here. Clearly there are some REAL experts on the subject and my input is not need.

i like your input, and appreciate your response, there will always be arguments or discussion on certain issues, ground probes are 1 of these, i can actually see both arguments, well in a way but regardless of which is right and wrong once youve said your bit youve contributed to the thread, unfortunately with on-line communitys you will get disagreements, learn to take them in your stride and switch off, i have, ive got annoyed at times but just let it go now

 

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14069076#post14069076 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Michael
i like your input, and appreciate your response, there will always be arguments or discussion on certain issues, ground probes are 1 of these, i can actually see both arguments, well in a way but regardless of which is right and wrong once youve said your bit youve contributed to the thread, unfortunately with on-line communitys you will get disagreements, learn to take them in your stride and switch off, i have, ive got annoyed at times but just let it go now

I second this post---58merc---I respect your input and willingness to do so.

BTW
My buddy had a 58Merc and I had a 57 Chev--I could take him everytime. :lol:

 

[abulgin]

I've been told that I can solve the power outage-tripping is to put a surge protector between the appliance and the GFCI. Will try this and post results.

 

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14069567#post14069567 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by abulgin
I've been told that I can solve the power outage-tripping is to put a surge protector between the appliance and the GFCI. Will try this and post results.

as long as it is a true surge protector--to many units say they contain true surge protectors but don't.

 

[Whys]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14070744#post14070744 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by capn_hylinur
as long as it is a true surge protector--to many units say they contain true surge protectors but don't.

You're totally wrong! Surge protectors always... JK.

I like the input and I see nothing wrong with a sprited discussion. After all, it's a matter of life and death.

Oh, and my GFCIs work without ground. I also have a grounding-probe, but given that I don't have ground...

Peace all.

 

[tmz]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14069567#post14069567 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by abulgin
I've been told that I can solve the power outage-tripping is to put a surge protector between the appliance and the GFCI. Will try this and post results.

Thanks for the information.

 

[tmz]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14069349#post14069349 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by capn_hylinur
I second this post---58merc---I respect your input and willingness to do so.

BTW
My buddy had a 58Merc and I had a 57 Chev--I could take him everytime. :lol:

Memory lane. Loved my 56 chevy.

 

[JoelNB]

I believe that the grounding probe is dependent on the GFCI. If you can't trust your GFCI, the probe becomes a liability rather than a good thing. This is a dilemma for me, having these devices would seem good. A GFCI should be considered a safety backup and not a primary means of protection due to the parts and chance of failure.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14068261#post14068261 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Whys
The neutral wire and the ground wire are not at all the same. And it doesn't matter how the current finds ground, if it does, then neutral and hot don't match, so it flips.

I agree with much of what you're saying, but one thing. If you have a live and neutral in the tank and they are passing current through the water with no ground probe present, won't the live and neutral then match?

 

[Whys]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14072720#post14072720 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JoelNB
A GFCI should be considered a safety backup and not a primary means of protection...

I'm uncertain as to what you would suggest for "primary means of protection". GFCI has a very specific purpose and it works for that purpose. I mean, yeah, you should have a circuit breaker as well, but... what besides a GFCI will save your life?

I agree with much of what you're saying, but one thing. If you have a live and neutral in the tank and they are passing current through the water with no ground probe present, won't the live and neutral then match?

As far as I know, yes, they'll match. But something would also have to come between those wires to get electrocuted. If both wires are in a broken heater, as with the previous example, then things will get shocked, but not electrocuted. The concern of some is that a grounding-probe will provide another path for which things can more easily come between. But as soon as that happens, the GFCI flips. Thus a grounding-probe can indeed be a danger without a GFCI. But then any mixture of water and electricity without a GFCI is a real danger.

GFCI should be considered a necessity. A grounding-probe should never be confused with a GFCI. A surge-protector should never be confused with a GFCI. Whether or not you use the second two is up to you. They are not necessities, but in general, they are a good idea. There is also something called an arc-fault-interrupt that may or may not be installed in your electrical box. It also has its own function and is a good idea.

 

[JoelNB]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14073658#post14073658 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Whys
I'm uncertain as to what you would suggest for "primary means of protection".

As far as I see it, a device upon which life depends should be either unbreakable or dependably failsafe. GCFIs (or RCDs (residual current devices) as I know them), are comprised of components that would normally not be considered entirely reliable (ICs, contact points, tantalum capacitors and such). In reality there should be little to worry about but it does grate against my better judgement (until I can think of something better ).

If both wires are in a broken heater, as with the previous example, then things will get shocked, but not electrocuted.

Isn't this dependent on the amount of current that flows through the critical systems of the animal in question?

As far as I know, yes, they'll match. But something would also have to come between those wires to get electrocuted.

They say that electricity finds the easiest path, but we're not talking about ionised air here. A tank of saltwater acts like an infinite network of pathways for that electricity to flow. It will take the longest paths but the increased resistance would cause less current at these edges. This is assuming that the source can keep up with supplying it, of course. We hear enough about the unfortunate effects of hairdryers dropping into bathtubs....we should assume the whole tank is affected and anything in it is at risk, even if the heater wires are only 1/2" apart.

 

[Whys]

It dips too much into theory for me at that point. I'm just trying to help keep the most accepted safety practices clear, as this thread has become very blurred.

 

[JoelNB]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14075188#post14075188 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Whys
It dips too much into theory for me at that point. I'm just trying to help keep the most accepted safety practices clear, as this thread has become very blurred.

I agree Whys, very blurred.

 

[Paul B]

won't the live and neutral then match?

Yes it will and the GFCI will not trip. Thats what is occuring with normal loads, the hot and neutral match.
For the GFCI to trip, some of that current has to go to ground.
Sometimes it will work without a ground probe because something else in the tank is directing the current to ground. It only takes a very little current to trip it. It could even be salt creep on the metal stand but current has to be lost to trip the thing and the only place it could be lost is to ground.
The probe just assures that there is a ground but even without one, many tanks have a ground somewhere even many small ones like dampness.

 

[stricknine]

WOW, quite the controversial thread!

Sounds like a few feathers were ruffled here, my sincere apologies if I had offended anyone. I intend to direct my comments and info at the information in the thread and not any fellow reefers on the thread. It is difficult to debate and remain liberal when your typing it in at 5 WPM. I think i need to know how to put those smiley faces in the posts!

At the end of it all, it does sound like everyone is on the same page in terms of the concept, but opinions vary on execution.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14068261#post14068261 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Whys
Absolutely false.

The neutral wire and the ground wire are not at all the same. And it doesn't matter how the current finds ground, if it does, then neutral and hot don't match, so it flips.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14068272#post14068272 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Whys
Right. He was getting shocked. As opposed to electrocuted. He was not a path to ground, nor was there one present. Had he been standing barefoot in a pool of water, then his GFCI would flip and save his life. Don't need a ground line for that. He would have been the ground line. That is what the fault interrupt is all about. It interrupts ANY fault to ground. Doesn't matter what it is. If it subtracts from the neutral line, then the GFCI flips.

Okay, now I'm really done. :]

What I meant is that the ground is required in order for the GFI to trip, I think we are on the same page here, but it comes down to how the ground is introduced to the system. My opinion and preference is to make the presence of ground imminent VIA a GP to take out the guesswork.

Its tough to come to a solid conclusion when fact meets opinion. Hopefully some did find this post informative enough to make a decision. One thing noone disputed was the fact of installing a GFCI receptacle or breaker for your system. I thank that is the most important fact, aside from the reason this thread came alive;

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14062991#post14062991 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by joemama65
hi, first tiem i have ever heard about grounding probes, im starting upa 90 gallon with a sump system, do i need a probe, if so where do you put it. Im guessign underneath the gravel. If anyone could give me a quick into to what and how they are used that would be awesome, thanks alot

IMHO, one in the DT, one in the sump.(IMO) anywhere there is a seperate body of water and an electrical appliance. Not too sure about the sand bed although it sounds like a good place for it, I'd just worry about the water contact if it was in there. (which may or may not be a problem) I plan to hide the one in my DT in or behind the rockwork.

Regards. ;-)

 

[Aquarist007]

It seems to have been ignored in the discussion so I will ask the question again.
I thought ground probes were introduced for the inhabitants of our reefs---not as a safety feature for us. They were designed only to handle small amts of stray current??

 

[Paul B]

I thought ground probes were introduced for the inhabitants of our reefs---not as a safety feature for us. They were designed only to handle small amts of stray current??

This is another tricky subject where everyone will disagree but my thing is that ground probes are there for our safety.
The fish can take care of themselves

 

[rgrobe]

GPs were originally marketed as a solution to stray voltage for the protection of the tank inhabitants. I've followed this thread from day one and i am surprized at the differing opinions and theories. It is a shame that we have made it so confusing for someone "New to the Hobby" to decide what is best.

I tend to agree with Paul B. Everyone should at least consider that their personal safety is more important than any fish or coral you own. Without you, a dedicated and conscientious reefer, a captive reef would not survive long unless you have an apprentice aquarist waiting in the wings.

 

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14077728#post14077728 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Paul B
This is another tricky subject where everyone will disagree but my thing is that ground probes are there for our safety.
The fish can take care of themselves

Paul----how do fish take care of themselves when it comes to stray current?