Guess the Phosphate level

Ever since I got a new box of reagents for my Hanna ULR checker I've been getting readings all over the place... Hanna replaced it for me so now I have 3 different Lot # 's of reagents. Every box gives me a different reading and that's with being very careful during the testing procedure. " Guess the Phosphate" is right .

I own the Hanna ULR meter. I think about 2 years ago I bought a few boxes of reagents. Now that they have run out, I'm finding that different reagent boxes give different results.

Yes, Hanna UK may supply me with a different set of boxes to replace any defective ones...but what happens when I run out...I have no real idea if I am getting a defective batch or not...unless I test against another test kit or get a really unexpected result.

Hence rather than put up with all that, I'm sticking with the Elos HR PO4 kit.
 
so the test kit was broken, and thats why no different was seen in corals at different po4 levels ?

cause the way I test my po4, is through the COLOR of my ACROPORAs.
 
I have a Hanna reagent pack that always reads 0.00 even when it was really .16. I received this box to replace a box that was alway reporting high numbers.

I'm going to just start counting the days it takes my glass to get dirty.
 
I also have issues with the Hanna ulr.. I wonder why they can't make a liquid reagent like the alk meter to make it not only faster but more user friendly.

I may try the Elos kit also. I have a Salifert but it always reads 0.
 
First of all, I'd like to say thanks for starting this thread! Sorry, this post is not exactly on topic with the current test reliability/accuracy discussion. I just read through the majority of it, and it's refreshing to see that there are so many views on husbandry and chemistry. My tank is approaching the 1 year mark. It's had it's up's and down's, but overall it's been good. Lately, I've been taking a step back; I've stopped chasing numbers and buying the latest supplement to yield what I thought was the ideal reef. I want what's best for the animals, and while I think there are many good products out there (or like to believe there are), I know that continually changing my processes, to achieve the 'ideal conditions', has not yielded good results. I've just gone back to checking parameters occasionally, performing weekly water changes (which I know may not be necessary), and trying to keep things relatively stable. My hope is that the tank will find it's 'rhythm' (for lack of a better term). This animal of a hobby is a complex beast.

I was drawn to Reefkeeping for its obvious beauty, but I stayed in it for its maddening complexity.

Thanks again, Thales!
 
My hanna checker for P04 is nice. I like it for what it is. But I really havent had the need to use it for over 2 years. I look at my corals and that does it for me. I did use it this past weekend as I had gone out of town and my wife's friend texted me saying she accidentally dumped way too many pellets into the tank. about 1/4 of the can...

I tested my p04 when I got home and it read 0.08. My tank looked fine so I just chalked it up to my over sized skimmer and my bio-pellets doing their job.
 
I also have issues with the Hanna ulr.. I wonder why they can't make a liquid reagent like the alk meter to make it not only faster but more user friendly.

I may try the Elos kit also. I have a Salifert but it always reads 0.

Its not even that the reagent is hard to get out the packet (yes that is a small issue), but the main issue is that the reagents give different result depending on batch! :fun4:

I have a Hanna reagent pack that always reads 0.00 even when it was really .16. I received this box to replace a box that was alway reporting high numbers.
Thats just funny and annoying at the same time! :headwallblue:

I'm going to just start counting the days it takes my glass to get dirty.
Yup, the "how long before the glass is dirty/needs cleaning" is a good way to tell. :)
 
so the test kit was broken, and thats why no different was seen in corals at different po4 levels ?

cause the way I test my po4, is through the COLOR of my ACROPORAs.

To help us just starting out...what are you looking for when you're looking at the color of your corals? Just if they're browning?

Looking for specifics :)
 
Hold it... This thread is about to go way off course, but for a really interesting reason..
Allmost, why not start a thread on how to 'read' one's corals for nutrient levels..
I, for one would be interested to hear what people have to say about that.. I suspect the answers would be as varied and interesting as the discussion in this thread....
I'll start it for you and hopefully you'll chime in..
 
Already written in the specific thread and I'm quite sure nobody will care of it, maybe because my posts number is too small...

Try using reagents from other test brand (like rowa, merck, elos hi-res) and make read the sample to photometer. Your results will be always the same and perfectly comparable to visual test.

I'm sure this will give a bit more interest on my messages: some shots of my tank.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/veneluca/
 
Already written in the specific thread and I'm quite sure nobody will care of it, maybe because my posts number is too small...

Try using reagents from other test brand (like rowa, merck, elos hi-res) and make read the sample to photometer. Your results will be always the same and perfectly comparable to visual test.

I'm sure this will give a bit more interest on my messages: some shots of my tank.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/veneluca/

very nice. So, you were having great colors at O PO4. What was your NO3 before raising the nutrients?
 
Already written in the specific thread and I'm quite sure nobody will care of it, maybe because my posts number is too small...

Try using reagents from other test brand (like rowa, merck, elos hi-res) and make read the sample to photometer. Your results will be always the same and perfectly comparable to visual test.

I'm sure this will give a bit more interest on my messages: some shots of my tank.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/veneluca/

Ink,

You have my full attention. Sir.
 
I've not so much to say and I've already written my thoughts.

About PO4 measuring, I use Hanna PO4 low range photometer with Elos or Rowa or Tunze reagents. I put 5 drops and 1 spoon in hanna vial (half spoon for Elos). It is very important to gently mix the solution without trapping bubbles. The vial must be perfect without any scratches. I mix for 3 minutes, make immediate read and then 3 minutes delay test. The second test is always slightly higher then the first one. You can try 10 consecutive tests and results will be always the same.

About nutrients, I can say what it's wrong on the basis of my experience and, if You want, I can say What I think it should be right, according to all information I got from others experience, threads, TOTM, etc, in the 16 years I move in reef tanks world.

I can say it's wrong to have zero nutrients (low/zero organic and zero inorganic - mean 0 NO3 and zero PO4), lot of light (duration and intensity) and a big skimmer.
In the last 2 years I've used to give 12h full light (12x54w t5), small amount of food, few fishes and a killer skimmer (BK supermarine 200 in 420 net liters volume).
Some corals have had good colors, some ddidn't; some grew, some didn't. Every time I saw things worsen I tried to increase organics and reduced light. Growth reduced, corals darkened. So I increased light and stop feeding. Tank seemed to start back, but was only a temporary situation. In the last 2 years I lost various corals very, very slowly. In the pictures You can see a big green milly that in the course of 2 years has slowly recessed till die. Other corals showed tissue thinning in the surfaces exposed to light wile reduced slowly growth. Many frags have never grown, in 2 whole years.

Here and there I found that most of thriving and old tanks use much less light than me, specially in duration, give much more food and have NO3 and PO4 detectable. Mines weren't detectable for 2 whole years.

So I decided to make quite a drastic change. I increased food. I reduced light to 6h full light and 12h only x2 blue+ tubes. I changed to a smaller skimmer.
PO4 are now 0,01 - 0,02. NO3 0,2 - 0,5 (salifert), after about 1 month.
Some of the starving corals recovered and are just starting to grow. Many had STN. New frags are instead doing fine. It's like if "old" corals were so unhealty they can't recover any more.
Tank is now a mess, but I trust it will recover and improve with much patience.

My opinion is that light "consumes" organic, directly or undirectly, and drive to them to wrong creatures. So we must use it with caution. Feeding is important, but without strong light, it causes increase of inorganics. An healthy tank with organics and inorganics houses healthy corals, maybe not light coloured, but healthy and with good growth. A tank with too few organics houses starving corals with inconstant health and grow and can't last too long.

I just make a list of people using low light (comparing to my standard) I've read recently and with proven results (random order):
dvanacker
jroover
Lunar
Cunareefer
reefbum

Thomas Phol uses to keep his fixtures at 40cm above his tanks, with 8h light. When we personally asked him what would happen using zeovit with fixture 10cm above tank, He answered we were fool and that that was a good way to kill corals.

One of the best italian tank I personally saw more than one time measures 250x100x95cm, ...95 cm tall. It's owner uses 4 8x54w ati fixtures, 30cm above tank. His rockwork it's only 40cm high and corals grow even in semishadow on bottom. He runs biopellets.
Here some pictures.
http://www.acquariofilia.biz/showthread.php?t=412398&highlight=paolo+broggi

My sensation is that organics presence is a must-to-have to keep healthy. Colors can improved lowering inorganics with carbon sources, like BP or liquid carbon. Like if low light pushes the coral to a more Heterotrophic behaviour and carbon sources simply transform inorganic to another form of organics that isn't available to zoox, but it is to corals.
I stress my sensation, not certainty.

But all good tanks have in common low light intensity/duration and much food, with detectable inorganics, not zero both NO3 and PO4.
 
I've not so much to say and I've already written my thoughts.

About PO4 measuring, I use Hanna PO4 low range photometer with Elos or Rowa or Tunze reagents. I put 5 drops and 1 spoon in hanna vial (half spoon for Elos). It is very important to gently mix the solution without trapping bubbles. The vial must be perfect without any scratches. I mix for 3 minutes, make immediate read and then 3 minutes delay test. The second test is always slightly higher then the first one. You can try 10 consecutive tests and results will be always the same.

About nutrients, I can say what it's wrong on the basis of my experience and, if You want, I can say What I think it should be right, according to all information I got from others experience, threads, TOTM, etc, in the 16 years I move in reef tanks world.

I can say it's wrong to have zero nutrients (low/zero organic and zero inorganic - mean 0 NO3 and zero PO4), lot of light (duration and intensity) and a big skimmer.
In the last 2 years I've used to give 12h full light (12x54w t5), small amount of food, few fishes and a killer skimmer (BK supermarine 200 in 420 net liters volume).
Some corals have had good colors, some ddidn't; some grew, some didn't. Every time I saw things worsen I tried to increase organics and reduced light. Growth reduced, corals darkened. So I increased light and stop feeding. Tank seemed to start back, but was only a temporary situation. In the last 2 years I lost various corals very, very slowly. In the pictures You can see a big green milly that in the course of 2 years has slowly recessed till die. Other corals showed tissue thinning in the surfaces exposed to light wile reduced slowly growth. Many frags have never grown, in 2 whole years.

Here and there I found that most of thriving and old tanks use much less light than me, specially in duration, give much more food and have NO3 and PO4 detectable. Mines weren't detectable for 2 whole years.

So I decided to make quite a drastic change. I increased food. I reduced light to 6h full light and 12h only x2 blue+ tubes. I changed to a smaller skimmer.
PO4 are now 0,01 - 0,02. NO3 0,2 - 0,5 (salifert), after about 1 month.
Some of the starving corals recovered and are just starting to grow. Many had STN. New frags are instead doing fine. It's like if "old" corals were so unhealty they can't recover any more.
Tank is now a mess, but I trust it will recover and improve with much patience.

My opinion is that light "consumes" organic, directly or undirectly, and drive to them to wrong creatures. So we must use it with caution. Feeding is important, but without strong light, it causes increase of inorganics. An healthy tank with organics and inorganics houses healthy corals, maybe not light coloured, but healthy and with good growth. A tank with too few organics houses starving corals with inconstant health and grow and can't last too long.

I just make a list of people using low light (comparing to my standard) I've read recently and with proven results (random order):
dvanacker
jroover
Lunar
Cunareefer
reefbum

Thomas Phol uses to keep his fixtures at 40cm above his tanks, with 8h light. When we personally asked him what would happen using zeovit with fixture 10cm above tank, He answered we were fool and that that was a good way to kill corals.

One of the best italian tank I personally saw more than one time measures 250x100x95cm, ...95 cm tall. It's owner uses 4 8x54w ati fixtures, 30cm above tank. His rockwork it's only 40cm high and corals grow even in semishadow on bottom. He runs biopellets.
Here some pictures.
http://www.acquariofilia.biz/showthread.php?t=412398&highlight=paolo+broggi

My sensation is that organics presence is a must-to-have to keep healthy. Colors can improved lowering inorganics with carbon sources, like BP or liquid carbon. Like if low light pushes the coral to a more Heterotrophic behaviour and carbon sources simply transform inorganic to another form of organics that isn't available to zoox, but it is to corals.
I stress my sensation, not certainty.

But all good tanks have in common low light intensity/duration and much food, with detectable inorganics, not zero both NO3 and PO4.

Interesting, and very enlightening....I too have experienced this out of balance effect. I would blast the light, skim heavy, reduce nutrients (cause it seems everyone else is doing it)....followed by drastic decrease in light, feed heavy, in order to have pale corals darken again, but where did the growth go?

I'd be interested in PAR values for those tanks you listed:
dvanacker
jroover
Lunar
Cunareefer
reefbum

In addition to this....I have learned from first hand experience how changes in lighting can effect a tank, quite drastically. For example, at 8 inches above my tank, my daily 2 part dose is 80ml per day, but at 14 inches it decreases consumption to only 50ml per day. Ph changes are noticeable too... it took me forever to figure out why increasing lighting intensity resulted in sps base recession.....its because alk dropped suddenly from the increase in light...I'm pretty clueless I suppose, but man I always missed the obvious stuff!
 
Alk consumption is another mystery.

When I used 2 part solutions, I consumed 500ml per day at peak. Jroover consumes 75ml per day. His growth has been surely higher than mine; pictures prove it. Dvanacker is in line with Jroover. Krszystzof consumes about 750ml per day. I can't explain that. But the sensation is that with more light (Krszystzof has more light hours), alk is consumed by somthing different than corals.

Luca
 
A few other data, that taken alone could not seem significant, but in the whole picture take important significance.

In the last 6 months I had zero algae growth. All macro disappeared.

In the last month, my skimmer was unable to take out something. It wasn't inhibited, but made no skimmate.

All data converged to zero organics. Tank was sterilized.

My friend's tank was in a situation much similar to mine, believing in the same principle.
In the past he used KZ revolution small. He always had trouble with that because was very unstable and it took minimal variation to make it overflow and after few days it reduced significantly his performance. He then substitued it with a supermarine 250. He ended in my same state: no skimmate.

Actually He is doing like me: increased food, reduced light and changed BK back to KZ small revolution. Now, that organics are present (not like before), it's curios to see how KZ works perfectly and ise very stable. While before He needed to clean beckett every few days, He cleaned that after 5 weeks and didn't noticed significant change.
It's like if before, with low organic concentration, skimmer needed an extreme water level to take out some skimmate, such that any minimal organic increase caused it to overflow. Now that organic are permanently present, the skimmer can be used with a lower internal water level, there isn't any variation on his performance and works properly.
How many times I heard skimmer constructors say that overrated skimmer can't work properly and works worse then a smaller skimmer...
Overrated relatively to water condition. Now all take sense. Now...
 
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