Has Anyone Tried a "Rubble Bottom?"

[algaeguy]

jnowell:

Thanks for sharing your experience!

As Paul has mentioned, if detritus in and of itself was a huge detriment to water quality, it seems as though we'd see a lot more in the way of disasters with rubble bottom and rubble-zone-incorporating systems. And the "low-flow-rubble-bottom" seems like a neat idea, too. I don't think that super flow is an absolute requirement for this kind of system. I think that the fact that you can run insanely high flow rates without substrate blowing all over is just another feature of the concept, but certainly not a "rule"...No rules here- just ideas!

The fact that detritus appears in most every system over time makes me wonder about the perceived advantages of "cooking" rock. I'm not trying to provoke those who sucessfully employ this method, but I'm starting to be skeptical about any long-term benefit of this process. I don't think that there is anything wron with the concept, but it seems that our thoughts are in direct opposition to the idea, and systems seem to be working in both the long and short term.

If detritus can actually benefit a system in some way, I'd be hesitant to employ such a "sterilization" technique before using the rock in a rubble-based system. I suppose just the standard "curing" process would do. Once again, I'm not advocating neglect or lack of good husbandry, but I am advocating that fanatic cleanliness may not be essential; in fact- may be detrimental to a sucessful rubble system. Skimming, water changes, activated carbon, etc. all have their places. One thing that we do get from our bare bottom friends is an appreciation for sound maintenance, but the similarities seem to start diverging from there.

Anyways- keep throwing the ideas out there!

Scott

 

[jnowell]

One thing that we do get from our bare bottom friends is an appreciation for sound maintenance

I can't be the only one who saw the humor in that, childish as it is!

On that note, again, not trying to pick at the rock-cookers, but seriously, I bought my rock dry (already sterile) for less than $2 a pound. It was from a fossilized reef, so nothing was killed obtaining it. I threw it in my sump for a few months, and guess what, sterile, beautiful, aquarium safe live rock.

The thought of paying $7 a lb. for rock that was chipped off of a LIVING REEF somewhere, and then killing most everything on it just doesn't make a lick of sense to me. I better quit before I ruin this peaceful thread. Really, to each his own, but that is my 2 cents worth.

I'm an avid scuba diver, and once you've been tooling along a beautiful reef somewhere, and round a corner to see corals, rocks, and fish being literally ripped from their natural environment by free diving natives, you tend to get a little touchy about these things. This same love for scuba is what made me so interested in my "brand" of rubble pile. in the wild, every coral head has a rubble zone piled up next to it on the inland side. That's why I tried the realtively low flow method.

I also second the picture thing, I'll have mine online tonight, but I hope someone else beats me to it other than Paul.

Jason

 

[rustybucket145]

Some pics of my RZ Tank

Some pics of my RZ Tank

Just thought I would show some pics from my tank that has been up for over 7 years, I just aquired it about a year ago and added some aragonite and a rubble layer on top. I have seen a "boom" in the overall population of copepods, amiphods, mysis shrimp and several other species that I cannot identify. It is really cool to watch the fish hunt for their prey. They seem to enjoy it more than recieving frozen food.

http://valdostaadsonline.com/fish/jawFish.jpg
http://valdostaadsonline.com/fish/jawFishCloseUp.jpg
http://valdostaadsonline.com/fish/yellowFingerGorgonian.jpg
http://valdostaadsonline.com/fish/020106/jpgss/020106JPGS/mushrooms.jpg
http://valdostaadsonline.com/fish/020106/jpgss/020106JPGS/unknownBrain2.jpg

here is a good close pic of my Yellow Finger Gorgonian (nothing to do with rubble but I thought I would share it)
http://valdostaadsonline.com/fish/GorgonianCloseUp.jpg


Just for your info I have: 4-6inch DSB with diverse piles of rubble throughout the tank. I have also incoporated a 3inch rubble zone in my sump. This tank has been running for about 6months with the rubble incorporated and it has never looked cleaner!! All my levels are 0 (which they were the same before I added the rubble zone) The hermit crabs have a ball sorting through the rubble.

 

[rustybucket145]

Here is another pic I found of the hermit crabs. This pic also shows how I have tried to have a very diverse bottom, incorporating large 5"-6" pieces as well as smaller pieces.

http://valdostaadsonline.com/fish/RZ-crabs.jpg

 

[rustybucket145]

I'll just add one more thing, those pics were taken to document some of my corals it just so happens that you can see the bottom and how it is set up. I will try to take some pics of my bottom tonight.

 

[jnowell]

Your rubble looks slightly larger than mine. Nice looking tank too! Is that aptasia in the back of the "unknown brain" image? I'm wondering because I have something very similar growing in my tank and I was about to kill it. Mine is very close to the lights, so it has a green center. The tentacles and base look very much like aptasia to me. Just wondering before I go killing something that might not be bad.

Jason

 

[rustybucket145]

No that is not Aptasia. It came from a local store they had it labled Condy Anemone but after some investigation I think it is some type of Hawian Purple Tip Anemone.

 

[barryhc]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6736085#post6736085 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by algaeguy
I'm sure that in a rubble bottom, similar stuff is found, but may be it may utilized differently by the animals that reside within the rubble zone.

In a Rubble Bottom, there is no Anoxic area on the Rubble SURFACE, to cause Anaerobic processing, and "sinking" into the depth of the bed. In other words, the compounds from the detritus are either "eaten", or returned to the water column for skimming or other processing.

Also, with a Rubble Bottom, many critters are allowed direct access to the detritus, without immediate predation. Sure, lots of critters get eaten by the fish, which we want, but a population is able to maintain itself to some point of equilibrium by way of the rubble "shelter".

The eating of the critters by the fish, is not only food, but is export as well. Many BB'ers, or detritus fanatics don't like this kind of statement, but some food makes it to the sand or rubble or whatever, and if critters aren't sheltered well enough to get at it, that becomes a rather nasty "import".

I know a lot of the anti-detritus people are concerned about phosphates accumulating in their systems, but I still wonder about the effects of small accumulations of detritus in cryptic areas. Are they really all that bad? Don't get me wrong- I'm not advocating lax maintenance, but I do proffer that accepting and working WITH some of the natural processes that occur in our systems, such as detritus production, can actually help us embrace a more complete biotope. Perhaps detritus doesn't have to be exported entirely through physical removal to be rendered harmless...perhaps it merely needs to be more fully utilized.

Right on Scott ! The problem is that the Test kits aren't good enough yet to even maintain a proper level, let alone know the answer to that question. This is what drives the fanatics. It's black or white for them because no "shade of gray" has been established, and inadequate test kits is the reason why.

Sure, there may be localized phosphate sources that could contribute to some algae growth, but I suspect that a good balance of detritivorous animals can help utilize this material and further break it down without jeapordizing water quality. The fact that Paul has been able to maintain an all rubble bottom system successfully for three decades attests to not only his husbandry skills, but the potentially minimal bad effects of detritus on water quality.

I still believe the detrivores do a huge job for keeping detritus in the water column for "non-sand-bed-processing". Ever see a snail or crab take a dump ? It doesn't lay there like fish poop does it ?

Don't forget Paul's RUGF, it is hugely responsible for controlling detritus accumulation. This includes his Prefilter. He explains about blowing off his rocks, and even with his low flow, the RUGF does a Huge job for him. I believe his "Algae Tray" is a big winner also. Paul also uses ozonated skimming since before it was well known.

Those of us that are using all-rubble bottoms or rubble zones along with other substrates should definitely document the water parameters within our systems, particularly the pH, phosphate and nitrate levels that interest us so much. If we can see long-term positive results from several systems of these types, we may have at least some anecdotal evidence that the concept works just fine in the long term, and is a valid alternative methodology, not just an experiment!

Exactamundo, to the Nth degree ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
Where are those organic phosphate test kits, or better yet electronic monitors. I'd give $500 for one if I could get a true handle on Phophates with it ! ! !

Be careful Scott, asking for those "out of the box", and sharing ideas replies, with me around. > Barry

 

[Paul B]

I also second the picture thing, I'll have mine online tonight, but I hope someone else beats me to it other than Paul.

Boy, I wish I had a new picture to beat Jason .

Rustybucket, that gorgonian in your avitar, Have you had much luck keeping one of those for a few years? I can't get two years from one of them. It must be me. I decided to stop killing them and stick with other types.

Barry, I don't get no stinkin detritus :lol:
It all must be locked up in my dolomite. I can never see any unless I blast into the rocks or stir the substrate.
I'm sure some of it is still in there since Nixon, (he was after Lincoln) I still don't think it harms anything. Heck, maybe it has vitamins in it. :eek1:

Have a great night.
Paul::

 

[barryhc]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6737895#post6737895 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jnowell
the 58g tank was previously used for coral propagation, so it's been a predator free zone for them for about 2 years. Lot's O pods are there to say the least.

What kind of corals were you propogating Jason ?

Here's my interesting observation before the re-arrangement. This tank rarely if ever got fed anything, maybe a little phytoplankton (live home grown nannochloropsis occulata). This only happened every few weeks at best when I thought about it, or had some extra from my clownfish breeding setup.

When I tore it down, there was TONS of detritus, everywhere, under everything I moved, inside and on top of everything I touched. This tank has had good husbandry, and ALL parameters were stable the entire two years. The corals grew very well, and I never lost an animal (outside of a few snails to the hermit crabs). So, a two year old, well maintained, healthy tank that was rarely fed anything, accumulated a good amount of detritus on it's own, and stayed very healthy.

What were your Phosphate levels during this time.

Thanks, > Barry

 

[jnowell]

What kind of corals were you propogating Jason ?

Many cool Zoanthids, yellow gorgonian, mushrooms, ricordea, zenia, anthillia, Kenya tree, leathers, branching hammer, frogspawn, star polyps, and palythoa, I may have left one or two out, but that pretty much covers it. I did have a few acropora frags in there, but with only PC lighting, they never grew big enough to frag.

What were your Phosphate levels during this time.

My phosphates were rarely ever detectable at all, never had any algae problems either. I did get some grape caulerpa on a frag I bought from GARF, so I just let it grow in there to help with nitrates and phosphates. I was using RO/DI water for top off and water changes

Here's the pics of my <1 month old rubble zone. Will keep you posted on its development. This will be a seahorse broodstock tank, so it will be well fed. The large rocks in the background are the 2 month old dry calcium carbonate rock I mentioned earlier.

A front view

A side view

And the whole area

 

[algaeguy]

Love the pics, guys.

It's neat to see different types of rubble and different substrate materials used, as well.

jnowell- I didn't even notice how my "bare bottom" comment looked until you pointed it out! Too funny!

Barry- go for it, man- as far out of the box as you can!

Please do record/report parameters as you can. It would be cool to get some data from a few different tanks utilizing different rubble approaches...

Remember- be "one" with the rubble...LOL

Scott

 

[rustybucket145]

Paul,
I've had that gorgonian for about a year and a half. It seems to be very healthy. It opens every night during the sunset phase of my tank. It stays open all night long until about 10am when natural sunlight hits my tank. It is growing so much that I have been able to propagate it several times to give to friends and family. I don't do anything special for it. I do dose phyto (home-brew) four or five times a week. I also feed live baby brine shrimp 2 or three times a week. Other than that he is just sitting in a high water flow area. I do have a very large population of copepods and amiphods in my tank, so I'm sure he is getting some 'natural' food as well as what I feed. I hope he lives a long and happy life. I assume that if it is growing it is healthy? How were you able to tell if your gorgonian was dieing?

 

[barryhc]

Re: Some pics of my RZ Tank

Re: Some pics of my RZ Tank

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6739097#post6739097 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rustybucket145
Just thought I would show some pics from my tank that has been up for over 7 years, I just aquired it about a year ago and added some aragonite and a rubble layer on top. I have seen a "boom" in the overall population of copepods, amiphods, mysis shrimp and several other species that I cannot identify. It is really cool to watch the fish hunt for their prey. They seem to enjoy it more than recieving frozen food.

Seven years is a great run on any tank in my estimation, and it needn't end there of course. Great job.

Just for your info I have: 4-6inch DSB with diverse piles of rubble throughout the tank. I have also incoporated a 3inch rubble zone in my sump. This tank has been running for about 6months with the rubble incorporated and it has never looked cleaner!! All my levels are 0 (which they were the same before I added the rubble zone) The hermit crabs have a ball sorting through the rubble.

I have never seen such clean rocks in a tank after any significant amount of time. How long have your rocks been in the tank ? What maintanence if any do you apply to your sand bed, and that of the previous owner ?

I have been shying away from crabs "a bit" recently, because of their impact on fauna populations. I have a lot of crabs in my tank along with snails, and "almost NO fauna". No Rubble or habitat for them either. I would say "just enough" crabs to keep the algae down, and elsewise rely much more on snails, in order to keep fauna populations "maximized".

It looks like I need to add a Rubble Zone ("RZ") to my tank right away, as I'm done being concerned about any potential negative aspect to sheltering the critters.

Gosh Scott, a "convert" !

 

[rustybucket145]

Barry, thanks for the comments.

As far as sand bed maintenance... The only thing I do is check the tank every day or so and turn over any Hermit Crabs or Snails that may have experienced technical difficulty. I have never Vaccumed the tank and I have had it for almost 2 years now, but it has been established for over 7. Some of the rocks in the tank were from my old 55gal tank (they were in pretty sad shape) Some of the rocks came with the tank when I bought it. Some of the rocks are man-made. The previous owner had really let the tank go. He had stopped dosing the tank with anything. But because of the bio-diversity in the tank nothing had died and the corals actually were very healthy.

When I got the tank I just set everything back up added some aragonite for DSB (sand was already about 4" deep) and Rubble Zones (I did this before I even knew about RC or what a RZ was). I have roughly 40-50 Hermit crabs of different species and sizes. I also have a good amount of snails and Bristleworms (that do NOT eat coral). Other than the occasional diatom I have had no problem with algae. I use tap water (don't tell anyone) but have been considering purchasing a RO/DI filter.

When you say Fauana I assume you are talking about micro-Organisms? If so... before my rubble zone was added the tank did have a good bit of micro-life but after it was added the population EXPLODED. As you can see by the pics I have several different sizes of rubble just like you would find on a reef edge/channel. I can see mysis shrimp, an ungodly amount of copepods and amiphods in all stages of life just by looking closely at my bottom. I have even witnessed some pretty bizzarre mating/fighting rituals between the little critters.

As far as the detrius matter, I can't seem to see any. Anywhere. Occasionally my Falco Hawkfish will spook and kick up some dust but the crabs and snails seem to keep it squeaky clean.

Rubble Zone: If You Build It.... They Will Come....

 

[Konadog]

Well, you guys beat Scott on posting pictures of your Rubble Bottom's, so he sent me some pictures to post of his. These are from Scott's tank.

 

[BrianPlankis]

Man, I'm even considering making my current 75 a rubble bottom now

Other than Scott's tank, anyone else using pieces about the size of a quarter or larger for their entire bottom? I have a DSB currently and am thinking of yanking(slowly of course) and replacing with LR rubble. Hmmmm....

Brian

 

[dan934]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6700015#post6700015 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by engagg
How about a rubble refegium? Anyone tried one? Could be a great place to grow some critters.

Great thread. About 4 years ago when I was setting up my first reef aquarium I could not find "affordable" substrate that was suitable for refugium at my LFS so I added about 2 inches of chunks of dead crushed coral pieces they had on sale as decorative rock (about 1 to 4 inches in length). I was originally going to add a plenum, so I left the divider in and created a 3/4" zone below this rubble. I also added about 4 or 5 pieces of live rock. It has been a major breading ground for pods, worms, and snails and is now an assorment of crushed coral, shells, feather dusters, chucks of coraline algae etc. I have helped seed a number other refugiums by putting new rock in my refugium for about a month before transfering it. It is literally crawling with these criters. I made some of the rock with crushed oyster shells and crushed coral for a very porous effect that I find attracts huge numbers of pods and worms in the crevices and appears to seed much faster than other live rock I have used (note it took months to cure to lower PH to safe level). I have this 30 gallon refugium connected to a 75 gallon tank and have had great success with almost every coral and fish I have kept. I often catch myself watching this tank's criters instead of my beautiful reef tank.

 

[Paul B]

Rustybucket. One and a half years is great for that gorgonian. I have much more luck with other types. maybe I will get another orange one. They are very common here in NY. I also hatch and feed baby brine shrimp a few times a week. I built a hatchery that makes it very easy.
Have a great day.
Paul

 

[rustybucket145]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6748396#post6748396 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dan934
I often catch myself watching this tank's criters instead of my beautiful reef tank.

I agree 100%. It's not what everyone else that looks at my tank sees. But to me it is the most interesting peice.