Has LED surpassed Halides?

[Wazzel]

Curious what you'd consider 'harder to keep'? I noted in my post that I cannot keep purple monster, but couldn't under MH either. The challenge with SPS in this tank is not so much the lighting as it is my choices of fish. Polyp extension is quite poor, though overall growth is good. In my frag tank, however, lit with the same combinations of LED, polyp extension is very good. I am very fond of my dwarf Angels, so ....

Right on the squamosa. It's large enough now that it mostly gets left alone. Whether I could keep the higher light requiring lama is a academic, nippers do them in. Have been able to keep and grow magnifica anemones under these same LEDs.

I would like to know what they are considering harder to keep acros also. I have yet to put anything in my tank that does not respond positively to my lighting. As far as clams I have 2 T. Max and a Derasa in my tank. My black T. Max I have had for over 2 years and it grows like crazy. The teal one I got over the summer and it looks better in my tank than it did at the LFS under T5.

The only problem I got right now I my tank is still recovering from the upgrade. I had some pieces bleach or fade during all the handling, water changes, alk swings and what not. Things are finally stable and they are coming back slowly. Hopefully in a few more months things will get back to where they were before the upgrade.

 

[jason2459]

I would like to know what they are considering harder to keep acros also...

What ever you don't have to justify their stance?

 

[ca1ore]

I'm largely with Wazzel - sure I lose SPS (though not for a while now), but with the exception of the aforementioned monster, all the frags I have attempted have grown for me under LED. Blue tort, red planet, red dragon, shortcake ...... etc. Maybe those are deemed 'easy', dunno. Got a lot of other frags the names of which I forget (got better uses for my brain cells than remembering silly made up names).

 

[jda]

Show me two or three years on a pearlberry or good ice fire still with good color that haven't start to STN from the bottom up. They don't exist that I have ever seen. I am talking softball-sized or bigger. The colors are muted and the colonies start die from the bottom up over time. Just about anybody can make frags work for a while... it is the year after year growth and health that can withstand things like picking and alk swings that is important to keep the harder acros. Colonies of these types of acropora are a different animal. The lights matter in overall health. There is causality here if you can look past the obvious to see some of the root causes - I know that this is hard and most people are not dynamic enough or too dogmatic to see it, but it is real.

Also, what does anybody make of the tons and tons of people who have lost all/most of their milles after switching to LEDs? Is this not real? You can read back on the a few of the TOTMs that have switched to see this pretty clearly.

Later this spring when it is not 2 degrees with a foot of snow coming, I will ship anybody (more like somebody since I don't have an endless supply) some frags of Tyree Icefire, Pearlberry, Blueberry Diesel, Blue Matrix and a few Milles and also a 20K Radium and M80 ballast if you will use the radium for six months for the pepsi challenge. This might sound cool to some, but I will warn you that you won't want to put your panels back on and I will want my radium back. I have offered this pepsi challenge to the locals and none of them ever go back once they see what the difference is with the non-easy acropora. If anybody near me wants to borrow a MH to see, I have a whole storepile that I have collected over the years - some of them are more than 15 years old and still run with a $60 bulb every few years (for the 14K phoenix).

I know that this is a small percentage of people who know or care about the difference or even can get acros to grow to colony size, but it is these kinds of details that are necessary for these folks who do want to keep them or for some to get to the next level. I am also aware that this makes me sound like an elitist douche to some... I know that it is easy to blame the fish, alk swings, etc. for not being able to keep some harder acropora for long periods of time, but they do just fine in other people tanks with different lights and the same fish and everybody has had parameter issues from time to time that healthier colonies can overcome.

 

[Wazzel]

What ever you don't have to justify their stance?

Do not understand that comment, can you clear up.

 

[jda]

He likely meant that people will choose what is not in your tank just to try and make their point better.

I will typically put birdsnest, poci, montis (branching, encrusting and plating) as well as most stags into the "easy to keep" bucket, but I usually stop there. ...the non-acros too (hydnophora, etc). He is saying that people might see that you don't have Orange Passion and use it as an example to just to try and make their point better.

...perhaps I am wrong... usually am.

 

[jason2459]

Do not understand that comment, can you clear up.

If you, or anyone with LEDs, have it and its doing good under LED it must be an easy coral...

I'm not saying that but that's what seems to be the case in that person's argument.

I'm with those that say they can all grow all kinds of coral. Its all personal preference and in the eye of the beholder what is best. Some people like lots of shimmer. Some like none. Some love a 20k look and some like a 10k. And one bulb or color blend may look completely different from one person to another. Like I love my coral plus T5 bulbs and feel like its a blue color around 14k. Others feel its way to white.

There's just no way everyone will ever agree on what's best considering the wide range of what someone perceives and likes.

 

[Wazzel]

Show me two or three years on a pearlberry or good ice fire still with good color that haven't start to STN from the bottom up. They don't exist that I have ever seen. I am talking softball-sized or bigger. The colors are muted and the colonies start die from the bottom up over time. Just about anybody can make frags work for a while... it is the year after year growth and health that can withstand things like picking and alk swings that is important to keep the harder acros. Colonies of these types of acropora are a different animal. The lights matter in overall health. There is causality here if you can look past the obvious to see some of the root causes - I know that this is hard and most people are not dynamic enough or too dogmatic to see it, but it is real.

Also, what does anybody make of the tons and tons of people who have lost all/most of their milles after switching to LEDs? Is this not real? You can read back on the a few of the TOTMs that have switched to see this pretty clearly.

Later this spring when it is not 2 degrees with a foot of snow coming, I will ship anybody (more like somebody since I don't have an endless supply) some frags of Tyree Icefire, Pearlberry, Blueberry Diesel, Blue Matrix and a few Milles and also a 20K Radium and M80 ballast if you will use the radium for six months for the pepsi challenge. This might sound cool to some, but I will warn you that you won't want to put your panels back on and I will want my radium back. I have offered this pepsi challenge to the locals and none of them ever go back once they see what the difference is with the non-easy acropora. If anybody near me wants to borrow a MH to see, I have a whole storepile that I have collected over the years - some of them are more than 15 years old and still run with a $60 bulb every few years (for the 14K phoenix).

I know that this is a small percentage of people who know or care about the difference or even can get acros to grow to colony size, but it is these kinds of details that are necessary for these folks who do want to keep them or for some to get to the next level. I am also aware that this makes me sound like an elitist douche to some... I know that it is easy to blame the fish, alk swings, etc. for not being able to keep some harder acropora for long periods of time, but they do just fine in other people tanks with different lights and the same fish and everybody has had parameter issues from time to time that healthier colonies can overcome.

I have colonies that are larger than softball sized that I grew from 1" frags. None of the issues you mention have happened to me and I am going on 3 years of LED only, without upgrading the lights. I also have several pieces in my tank I rescued from Mh and T5 tanks because they were killing them. They do just fine in my tank.

Here is my SPS list, it that matters.

ORA Chips Acro
Pink Lemonade
JF Coolers Turki
RR Peacock
BC Reverse Sky Parade
PC Rainbow Acro
Pink Birds Nest
BC Carmelita Millie
BC Sunset Millie
BC Miyagi Tort
Copps Hulk Millie
BC The Shag Millie
Green Acro
RR Wolverine
BC Christmas Millie
BC Blood Red Millie
BC Pineapple Tree
BC Efflo
BARF Bonsai
Free Slimmer
Highlighter Acro
BC Blueberry Fileds
BC Set to stun acro
Red Dragon
Pink Panther
RR Orange Passion
Red Planet
Terria del Feguo
BC Aussie Delicate Table
Tubs mystic blue millie
BC Goonies
BC Gremlin Turki
Oregon Tort
Some cool acre that I forgot the name (yes seriously)
Purple Stylo
Purple M. Digi
M. Caps - Orange, purple rim and seasons greetings
Orange M. Setosa

And a bad picture of my tank 3 months after my upgrade.

 

[Wazzel]

He likely meant that people will choose what is not in your tank just to try and make their point better.

I will typically put birdsnest, poci, montis (branching, encrusting and plating) as well as most stags into the "easy to keep" bucket, but I usually stop there. ...the non-acros too (hydnophora, etc). He is saying that people might see that you don't have Orange Passion and use it as an example to just to try and make their point better.

...perhaps I am wrong... usually am.

Funny you pick that coral. I just got an orange passion from a friend because he could not get it to color up under T5. Only had it a few weeks so still waiting to see what it will do for me.

 

[jda]

I would really like to see some pictures of those large milles once your tank colors back up yet. Seriously, I have not seen any - ever. ...and I travel a lot and have been into a lot of stores with supposedly good acro tanks and all that I ever see is larger stags and birdsnest with colonies of the others struggling to get near a baseball.

I am not too much of a dooche to not see when somebody has done well, but I seriously have not seen this yet. I would love to see it. I would also love to see a tank(s) like Copps are LED driven.

 

[jda]

Funny you pick that coral. I just got an orange passion from a friend because he could not get it to color up under T5. Only had it a few weeks so still waiting to see what it will do for me.

I just pulled this one out of thin air. You saw the ones that I mentioned and OP was not one of them. None of them are on your list, but I would not use this as "proof" of anything since it is likely just coincidence. I would be curious of any experiences with pearlberry or a good ice fire (there are lots of bad one). I have have seen sellers do just fine with them and sell the frags, but they struggle beyond that without at least a good amount of T5s to help the LEDs. Again, not saying that it is not possible, just in viewing hundreds of tanks with my own eyes, I have not seen it.

 

[Wazzel]

If you, or anyone with LEDs, have it and its doing good under LED it must be an easy coral...

I'm not saying that but that's what seems to be the case in that person's argument.

I'm with those that say they can all grow all kinds of coral. Its all personal preference and in the eye of the beholder what is best. Some people like lots of shimmer. Some like none. Some love a 20k look and some like a 10k. And one bulb or color blend may look completely different from one person to another. Like I love my coral plus T5 bulbs and feel like its a blue color around 14k. Others feel its way to white.

There's just no way everyone will ever agree on what's best considering the wide range of what someone perceives and likes.

I think people like to say that because they are not fully accepting the fact that LEDs do work. To argue over a slight difference in the color of a coral is extremely silly. All the colors we bring out in corals are artificially stimulated anyway.

 

[Wazzel]

I just pulled this one out of thin air. You saw the ones that I mentioned and OP was not one of them. None of them are on your list, but I would not use this as "proof" of anything since it is likely just coincidence. I would be curious of any experiences with pearlberry or a good ice fire (there are lots of bad one). I have have seen sellers do just fine with them and sell the frags, but they struggle beyond that without at least a good amount of T5s to help the LEDs. Again, not saying that it is not possible, just in viewing hundreds of tanks with my own eyes, I have not seen it.

I have a Jason Fox Coolers Turaki. IIRC it is similar or even the same as the ice fire. Got it as a 1/2" almost dead piece. Now it is baseball sized and has a nice blue color.

 

[Wazzel]

I would really like to see some pictures of those large milles once your tank colors back up yet. Seriously, I have not seen any - ever. ...and I travel a lot and have been into a lot of stores with supposedly good acro tanks and all that I ever see is larger stags and birdsnest with colonies of the others struggling to get near a baseball.

I am not too much of a dooche to not see when somebody has done well, but I seriously have not seen this yet. I would love to see it. I would also love to see a tank(s) like Copps are LED driven.

The big tort in the front of my tank looks better than the millies. It is 8-10" tall, wide and deep. It is growing down the rock it is on.

 

[zooman72]

I think people like to say that because they are not fully accepting the fact that LEDs do work. To argue over a slight difference in the color of a coral is extremely silly. All the colors we bring out in corals are artificially stimulated anyway.

:thumbsup:

Winner, winner, chicken dinner...

:hammer:

 

[ca1ore]

Show me two or three years on a pearlberry or good ice fire still with good color that haven't start to STN from the bottom up. They don't exist that I have ever seen. I am talking softball-sized or bigger. The colors are muted and the colonies start die from the bottom up over time. Just about anybody can make frags work for a while... it is the year after year growth and health that can withstand things like picking and alk swings that is important to keep the harder acros. Colonies of these types of acropora are a different animal. The lights matter in overall health. There is causality here if you can look past the obvious to see some of the root causes - I know that this is hard and most people are not dynamic enough or too dogmatic to see it, but it is real.

Also, what does anybody make of the tons and tons of people who have lost all/most of their milles after switching to LEDs? Is this not real? You can read back on the a few of the TOTMs that have switched to see this pretty clearly.

Later this spring when it is not 2 degrees with a foot of snow coming, I will ship anybody (more like somebody since I don't have an endless supply) some frags of Tyree Icefire, Pearlberry, Blueberry Diesel, Blue Matrix and a few Milles and also a 20K Radium and M80 ballast if you will use the radium for six months for the pepsi challenge. This might sound cool to some, but I will warn you that you won't want to put your panels back on and I will want my radium back. I have offered this pepsi challenge to the locals and none of them ever go back once they see what the difference is with the non-easy acropora. If anybody near me wants to borrow a MH to see, I have a whole storepile that I have collected over the years - some of them are more than 15 years old and still run with a $60 bulb every few years (for the 14K phoenix).

I know that this is a small percentage of people who know or care about the difference or even can get acros to grow to colony size, but it is these kinds of details that are necessary for these folks who do want to keep them or for some to get to the next level. I am also aware that this makes me sound like an elitist douche to some... I know that it is easy to blame the fish, alk swings, etc. for not being able to keep some harder acropora for long periods of time, but they do just fine in other people tanks with different lights and the same fish and everybody has had parameter issues from time to time that healthier colonies can overcom

Fair enough, though let's not go 'blame', it sounds petty. More like choices.

FWIW, I've got half a 60G frag tank 'free' and would be happy to accept your challenge, still got my old MH lights.

Why 'tons and tons' of people have lost SPS to LED I think is complicated. I'd be the first to suggest that LEDs have come a long way and the fixtures from even a few years ago stunk. The other reason is that many folks just aren't that good at keeping reef tanks (we elitist douches need to stick together) and/or misused the lights. I'm not trying to be difficult, I'm really not, I'm just interested in getting the best looking tank I can. The fact that some succeed with LED and others do not (beyond my prior comments) is a curiosity to me. I'm also not in the least bit interested in 'defending' what I have - it's sunk costs.

 

[Wazzel]

Fair enough, though let's not go 'blame', it sounds petty. More like choices.

FWIW, I've got half a 60G frag tank 'free' and would be happy to accept your challenge, still got my old MH lights.

Why 'tons and tons' of people have lost SPS to LED I think is complicated. I'd be the first to suggest that LEDs have come a long way and the fixtures from even a few years ago stunk. The other reason is that many folks just aren't that good at keeping reef tanks (we elitist douches need to stick together) and/or misused the lights. I'm not trying to be difficult, I'm really not, I'm just interested in getting the best looking tank I can. The fact that some succeed with LED and others do not (beyond my prior comments) is a curiosity to me. I'm also not in the least bit interested in 'defending' what I have - it's sunk costs.

I think the tons and tons is misleading. People tend to be more vocal when things go bad than when things are going good.

Some of the issues JDA pointed out also happen to people that run other light systems and may or may not be light related. It could be they have not increased flow to account for the denser coral growth, gotten lazy with tank maintenance, got a pest unknowingly or a whole lot of other things that present with similar symptoms, so to speak.

 

[rtparty]

It's not a statistic, but it's evidence of the change that's taking place:

I just got a catalog from Drs Foster & Smith and it has 7 pages of led fixtures (roughly 25 fixtures) and 1 page of t5 fixtures (just 2) and no MH? Not one single MH fixture in the entire catalog.

Using "sales" as an indicator of which light works better/best is silly on many, many levels.

Of course a current catalog will be filled with LED fixtures. They are what is selling right now. Why use valuable real estate promoting a fixture and technology that doesn't sell? That's business 101 when it comes to catalogs and paper print. I get to see and deal with it everyday as my job (promotional products and apparel.) I'd NEVER send a catalog out and waste even 1/2 a page with my worst selling item(s). Doesn't make sense. However, I will use an entire page each on my top selling items. Sometimes 2 or 3 pages even because I know my ROI is high with those products.

To the topic on hand,

Go see each if you can. If you like an LED lit tank, go that way. If you like T5, go that way. You like MH more, go that way. Hell, if you love a naturally lit tank, do it! Just learn and understand the pros and cons to every system.

Will my tank see LEDs right now? Not a chance. I've yet to see a single LED tank I liked. Is that the LEDs fault? Nope. My eyes and brain don't like the look overall. It's not right or wrong. Just a choice.

(BTW Ron, that isn't directed at you and I know you'll know that #beerthingy)

 

[Wazzel]

To the topic on hand,

Go see each if you can. If you like an LED lit tank, go that way. If you like T5, go that way. You like MH more, go that way. Hell, if you love a naturally lit tank, do it! Just learn and understand the pros and cons to every system.

That is some good advice.

 

[rtparty]

That is some good advice.

I should add, when looking at the tanks though don't fixate on the corals, colors or fish so much. One reef keeper may be that much better and has better colors. It may have nothing to do with the lights used.

Look at the overall big picture and what the light looks like in each tank. Look for shadowing, color banding, shimmer, disco ball effect.

It is the shadowing (don't care what anyone says there is prominent shadowing with a single point light like LEDs and MH. It's science.) and the disco ball effect that makes LEDs look "off" to my eyes. It's also a colder and harsher look overall. Again, not wrong or bad. Just my choice.