High Nitrates - Immediate Removal?

[Xxero]

Algae Turf Scrubber

Algae Turf Scrubber

I made and installed an Algae Turf Scrubber today, following the general guidelines in this sticky thread:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1977420&highlight=algae+turf+scrubber

I kept it very simple. I already had a MJ1200 pump not being used, so the other parts only cost me about $15:

To cut the 1/8" slot, I used a utility knife (new blade!) to get the opening started, and then I used a sheetrock saw to cut the length. The width of the saw is about 1/16", so I used the utility knife for the fine tuning:

I also used the sheetrock saw to rough up the plastic sheeting. The saw blade is so jagged that it does a really good job scarring up the surface:

I'm only lighting one side of it for now (from behind) but it's a pretty big piece of plastic mesh, so I think everything is okay:

Works like a charm:

The only part of the mesh that isn't receiving a cascade of water is about the first 2 inches on the right side. I think it's a leveling of the bar issue, but I also think it will right itself once the algae begins to grow:

It was a quick Saturday project, and I hope it pays off in the end. :bigeyes:

 

[ccrider93]

Thank you so much, Oldbones! I never did.

But since you reminded me, I just did a quick test on an LFS sample and it read 5.0!!! I believe you may have just solved my problem. Every time that I top off or mix new water, the water that I am adding has a 5.0 nitrate level. Argh. Looks like the LFS needs to change their filters, and it looks like I need to quit procrastinating my RO/DI unit purchase.

Is this really the solution? Shouldn't you be at 5PPM in the tank then? You measured 30 PPM, replaced 100% plus some more of the water, you should be at 5PPM, where's the other 25PPM coming from?

 

[bertoni]

Cool! Please keep us posted as to how it works.

 

[oldbones]

Is this really the solution? Shouldn't you be at 5PPM in the tank then? You measured 30 PPM, replaced 100% plus some more of the water, you should be at 5PPM, where's the other 25PPM coming from?

Remember, Nitrates don't evaporate. Imagine using 1.002 salinity water in your auto top off, your salinity would continually creep up. Every gallon of water that leaves his tank, via evaporation or any other means, is being replaced with water containing 5ppm nitrates...

 

[ccrider93]

Remember, Nitrates don't evaporate. Imagine using 1.002 salinity water in your auto top off, your salinity would continually creep up. Every gallon of water that leaves his tank, via evaporation or any other means, is being replaced with water containing 5ppm nitrates...

OK, that makes sense. It's just confusing when I think about the amount of water changed. The way I am thinking about it, you're removing some amount of PPM in each change, so wouldn't it stand to reason that some amount of nitrates are coming out of the water column? Is it not all but 1:1? Say I remove 30% of the water, and I had 100PPM NO3, why wouldn't I expect 60PPM ex post? This would have to accept the given that no more nitrates are being produced, and no other water changes made.

 

[bertoni]

If you do a 30% water change on a tank with 100 ppm nitrate, and the water for the change is at zero, the result would be 70 ppm in the tank.

 

[garygonzales]

If you do a 30% water change on a tank with 100 ppm nitrate, and the water for the change is at zero, the result would be 70 ppm in the tank.

yes in theory...but as you can see with op and me water changes don't do ****...........:mad2:

 

[ccrider93]

yes in theory...but as you can see with op and me water changes don't do ****...........:mad2:

OK, that's my point. Something is making the NO3 go higher. To my way of thinking it's not necessarily the addition of water with nitrates in it, or some levels would have changed, for better or worse.

I'm not suggesting that 5PPM NO3 water from the LFS is a good thing, far from it. What I am suggesting is that high nitrates are indicative of a nitrifying bacteria "problem", in that they are too plentiful vs de-nitrifying bacteria, which can be encouraged with the addition of a carbon source.

I'm using my own RODI source, so I know my water is free from contaminates, which is why I'm asking the question. Some of this just doesn't fit appropriately for me. This could be that I'm misunderstanding the process in general, or that my maths are bad, or that I'm crazy. :lol: Either way, I'm seeking to understand why this happens with run-away nitrates.

 

[ccrider93]

If you do a 30% water change on a tank with 100 ppm nitrate, and the water for the change is at zero, the result would be 70 ppm in the tank.

My bad, I forgot how to subtract. :headwally: Good catch.

 

[garygonzales]

im not sure either ..battling high nitrates for awhile ...other then taking all my substrate out and and rinsing all my rock..basically starting over over ..just going to keep dosing with nopox and see if can at least bring it down to managment levels...

 

[ccrider93]

im not sure either ..battling high nitrates for awhile ...other then taking all my substrate out and and rinsing all my rock..basically starting over over ..just going to keep dosing with nopox and see if can at least bring it down to managment levels...

The NOPOX is working well for me. It's taking some time, I should probably do a W/C at some point. I've killed enough corals at this point, that I'm just waiting it out, until I can get the NOPOX to a maintenance level that seems to suit.

I have a friend who did the same thing with his tank, took him 16 weeks to get everything under control, and he's was in the same situation as the OP....clean tank, regular maintenance, in house RODI, blah blah blah....so we'll see.

 

[Xxero]

.....or some levels would have changed, for better or worse.

This is still confusing me a little also. With the LFS water being at 5.0ppm, I can see that this can be a big contributing factor. That water goes into my tank daily and weekly in bulk via water changes.

But why 30ppm!?! I swear to Poseidon every test that I have done has read 30! API and Red Sea and also having the LFS test for me ---30! I test right before a water change - 30ppm. I test a couple of hours later - 30ppm.

You would think changing 20 gallons at once (which would be a 50% water change for me), that it would at least drop to 25ppm? 20 even? NOPE! 30! How can this be? It's like the nitrates see me setting up my buckets in front of the display, and they cry out, "RuUuUun! HIDE! Water boy is here!" (My new nickname at the LFS:mad2.

 

[bertoni]

The nitrate level in many tanks seems to bounce back to equilibrium rapidly. I'm not sure why.

 

[tmz]

I guess my point of sharing this is, that I didn't really see any results until near the end of the 6 weeks, and it all came at once. And keep in mind this is anecdotal, I didn't write any of this down or anything.

The starting nitrate levels often linger for weeks to months when organic carbon dosing starts and then drop dramatically almost overnight . Not sue why ;suspect it takes time for bacteria to colonize enough to start anaerobic activity to reduce it.

 

[garygonzales]

i bet your right about this...we are expecting results overnight ...lol......we just have to be patient and let this run its coarse...so we will see .........

 

[ccrider93]

The nitrate level in many tanks seems to bounce back to equilibrium rapidly. I'm not sure why.

This is the crux of my "argument". Why isn't it plausible that the cycle itself is creating this? Beyond adding it, as the OP has found out, what else would create it? To my way of thinking, it stands to reason that it's the nitrifying bacteria, and an "out of control" cycle.

The reasons for this may vary, and I've read several posts on RC that point to additional ammonia in the source water, which is admittedly rare when using RODI, or some other addition of ammonia from another source. My contention here is that the worms/pods/snails/hitchhikers create this ammonia in enough abundance to fuel the nitrifying bacteria such that you get NO3 that is seemingly uncontrollable.

I also think that it's sort of self-fulfilling. Once the tank reaches a good point, you start growing coraline and other algae, well, the worms/pods/snails all consume that, so over feeding is simply something that happens as a result of a successful tank. We're all sort of in the same boat, I think this has led me to the inevitable conclusion that some form of carbon dosing to encourage the denitrifying bacteria is all but a requirement for any successful tank.

 

[ccrider93]

The starting nitrate levels often linger for weeks to months when organic carbon dosing starts and then drop dramatically almost overnight . Not sue why ;suspect it takes time for bacteria to colonize enough to start anaerobic activity to reduce it.

Does it actually reduce it? I would imagine that once the NO3 is in the column, you're seeking to do two things...1. reduce the production of NO3 and 2. remove the NO3 from the column.

Is there a bacterial process that removes NO3? I think what happens is that the tank is simply using it, and the production goes way down to what eventually becomes a manageable level.

 

[ccrider93]

It's like the nitrates see me setting up my buckets in front of the display, and they cry out, "RuUuUun! HIDE! Water boy is here!" (My new nickname at the LFS:mad2.

ha! I think they run at my LFS for different reasons...but hey, we all can't be beautiful people :lolspin:

I do feel your pain, you're reluctant to bring these things up sometimes as it seems you're being a nuisance customer vs someone who's trying to help them. Plus you have relationships at your LFS that you want to nurture...

 

[bertoni]

Nitrate definitely can be produced during the initial setup. Some long-established tanks have the same issue with nitrate levels bouncing back up rapidly, too, though. Getting nitrate out of the water column might best be done with some water changes or carbon dosing. There are some reasons to believe that the live rock isn't as good at that.

 

[Xxero]

I really am reluctant to bring it up. I had planned on making a trip to that LFS today, so I tested their water again this morning - TWICE! So my API test reads it at 5.0ppm and I've performed that test twice. And my Red Sea gave it a 5.0ppm as well. 3 tests at 5.0ppm of nitrates in my LFS water.

I've got 20 bucks that says they will initially deny it. I'm going to ask them to test it, but I'm not even sure if they will do that. If they do test it and they get the same reading, then I bet they will tell me 5.0ppm nitrates won't hurt anything and is not responsible for my nitrate issues.

On a side note, I performed a 20% water change this morning. My nitrates read 30ppm before the WC and 30ppm 2 hours later. @#$%! nitrates! :lmao:

Today is also my entrance into Week 3 of vinegar dosing. I crank things up to about 11ml per day now, and visually, things have never looked better. Other than fish I only have: 5 various Mushrooms, 2 Green Button Polyps (which one has had 2 babies now!), a Zoa cluster, 2 Torch corals (I think?), and a Colt coral frag. All of these are absolutely thriving, except the Zoa patch is being kind of weird.

The algae that forms on the glass right now is very minimal, and it looks different than I've seen previously. It has a fleshy/Silly Putty tone to it, and I'm assuming it's bacteria build up?

Anyway, an RO/DI unit is next on the list. I've really preferred just getting it at the LFS in the past and mixing it up at home. This particular LFS is right down the street from work, so it always gave me the opportunity to look around at new livestock arrivals and ask billions of questions with the owner. But now I don't like this water situation, so I guess it's time to get an RO/DI unit. I will probably go the BRS route on that one. :bigeyes: