How are sps colors with po4 readings .15 to .30?

0.1 over calcification stops ....

Where is the hard scientific evidence for this? I'm an SPS newb so you can scold me, but I am going through my first SPS crash after 3 months because I managed to slowly get my phosphate down to .1 and boom, RTN. (remember, I'm a newb, so it could have been something else)

Above .1 (RedSea Pro test kit) they were growing slowly, but growing, alive, polyp extension, better then dead. :)

Here's all I can find on the subject of phosphate and calcification.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/4/chemistry

This is from 2002 so maybe there is more data now?

This inhibition of calcification takes place at concentrations frequently attained in reef tanks, and may begin at levels below those detectable by hobby test kits. For example, one research group found that long term enrichment of phosphate (2 mm; 0.19 ppm; maintained for 3 hours per day) on a natural patch reef on the Great Barrier Reef inhibited overall coral calcification by 43%.23 A second team found effects in several Acropora species at similar concentrations.24

Organic phosphate and phosphonate inhibitors of calcification have also been studied and probably work by a similar mechanism. HEBP, a bisphosphonate that is shown below, causes a 36% inhibition of calcification in Stylophora pistillata at 10 mm, and stops it completely (99%) at 500 mm.25

Thanks.
 
My po4 readins are .15 right now. I had a po4 reading of .30, so I started running rowaphos. 8 days later some of the frags started losing tissue around the base.
Is there really that big of difference with colors on po4 readings in the .01 to .06 compared to .15?
I will wait a few days before I start the rowaphos reactor back up.

I had a very bad dino's outbreak months ago. Then I treated the tank with Ultra Algae X and stopped all the other filters except the skimmer as required by the manual.

My phos reading soared up to 0.25. And the result is:

All the corals browned up. My magnificent anemone opened the mouth wider. But p.e and growth didn't seem to be influenced. all the corals maintained full p.e.
 
There are no absolutes in this hobby, here is a tank that has awesome sps coloration with po4 at .34 to .37, people sometimes put too much emphasis on a number.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2197142

I believe people are trying too hard to have low numbers and starving corals. we have much better testing abilities now than we did 10 years ago but it seems there are fewer tanks with incredible colors now.

I know a SPS guy who does amazing things, some say beyond belief, with P04 in the 0.4 range. I know because I tested his water :hmm3:
 
I know a 92 yr old lady who eats egg and cheese every day and is really healthy. There is always the exception.
 
I know a 92 yr old lady who eats egg and cheese every day and is really healthy. There is always the exception.

That's because eggs and cheese(real cheese) aren't bad for you. They are high in protein and calcium, something which an elderly woman should be eating plenty of.

In a genus with 149 species, the odds are good that not every species is going to take identical conditions.

Edit:
Also, I have no idea why it *** out my previous link but here it is again
reef builders.com/2011/12/05/acropora-phosphate-growth/ (remove the space)

This is the journal article: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022098111004588
And an article regarding nitrates and ammonia: http://www.int-res.com/articles/meps/68/m068p065.pdf
 
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Thanks everyone for the information as it make more sense to me about P04 what does the majority of reef keepers use to eliminate it RO/DI and GFO or are water changes just enough?
 
GFO, water changes and occasionally a little vinegar when I manage to have NO3. In addition, a very small dose of ozone, ROX .8 carbon, a decent skimmer, slow flow to sump and detritus is siphoned out with water changes. It's a pretty simple old school setup and it works. PO4 is kept about .04 to .06 per Hanna 713 and I can usually tell when the PO4 is too high or low, the corals and algae on the glass tell me.
 
GFO, water changes and occasionally a little vinegar when I manage to have NO3. In addition, a very small dose of ozone, ROX .8 carbon, a decent skimmer, slow flow to sump and detritus is siphoned out with water changes. It's a pretty simple old school setup and it works. PO4 is kept about .04 to .06 per Hanna 713 and I can usually tell when the PO4 is too high or low, the corals and algae on the glass tell me.
Well right now I have been dosing vodka on week 3 and my numbers are dropping in the right direction. I also do heavy skimming with an MR2 single becket and it has been doing wonders for me. I have not used GFO but maybe I will try some. I tested my water this Saturday and according to my test kit it's reading0.03 Red Sea test kit. My nitrates are around .25 and for some reason is not moving downward as fast as I would like. Is their any relation to PO4 and nitrate? That affect each other?
 
Yes, with dosing vinegar there will be a much greater uptake of nitrates than phosphates so it is normal to use GFO to help with the po4. Carbon dosing is generally not effective in removing po4 unless you have a lot of no3. FWIW my corals seem happiest with no3 at 2-5 and po4 at .04 and keep in mind those numbers are not completely accurate, the resolution is not fine enough in hobby grade kits to be accurate, but that doesn't matter, I know the Salifert titration kit isn't exact and the Hanna is off by 0-.04, what matters is finding where the corals are happy and colorful and the test kits just serve as a guideline to keeping it close to those levels.
 
if you start using gfo, the calculator on BRS is pretty good resource but I would start off with half or even a little less than half of what they suggest. For my system it suggest 3.3 cups of GFO so I started with 1.5 cups. It brought my po4 down from .1 to .06. Corals had great pe but colors were a little on the brown side so I added another 1/4 cup of gfo and that brought my level down to .03. Colors look better and better every day and growth is starting show again. I would lower slowly since its easier to revive brown corals from too much po4 then it is to revive a starved coral that has stn/rtn because po4 levels dropped too rapidly or are too low. Like Jack says, let your tank be your primary test kit and when something doesnt look right....thats when you go to the kits.
 
I dose vinegar and Iron for my chaeto. Macro growth eliminates both PO4 and NO3. I used to pump CO2 into the chaeto fuge, I just made sure I dosed kalk at the same time and gassed it out before it hit the display. I was chopping off half of the chaeto ball every 3 days lol.
 
I know a SPS guy who does amazing things, some say beyond belief, with P04 in the 0.4 range. I know because I tested his water :hmm3:

what do you mena by amazing things ?

does his sps grow ?

would love to see a pic !
 
I know some people that smoke several cigs a day and yet to have lung cancer.

Lung cancer is not the leading ailment in long time smokers. Many more will die of COPD, Emphysema, Heart Disease (attack), stroke, pancreatic cancer (Patrick Swayze/my grandmother) and bladder cancer. Lung cancer is just the most known one to the public.

No, I'm not an oncologist, but my brother's a doctor. I do understand your point however.
 
ya the only sps i have is green slimer, and i have not been testing my po4.

bought a reactor,gfo and a po4 Salifert test kit after reading this post.
 
@Alex T.
I think the Lung Cancer one is most known to the public since that is what the old Marlboro Man got.
 
Back on topic...I've noticed much better coloration in my SPS since my PO4 started to climb a little. When I was carbon dosing in my last tank, it seemed since nitrate was limited that my PO4 got out of hand and started leaching like mad. This caused a large hair algae outbreak, and gave me an excuse to upgrade. I've decided not to carbon dose in this tank, and keep nitrates between 2-5. I feel it's much easier to keep PO4 in check with nitrate not being limited as well. I'm running GFO and seem to be doing well with PO4 running between .03 - .05 on my Hannah Checker. Since this is a new tank, my Checker was reading 0 for months, and my SPS seemed to lighten up a bit, even with measurable nitrate. When the PO4 climbed, the colors returned. I've always ran 400 watt Radiums on my tanks, and could never understand why my corals were always pale with little growth, even with a 5 hour metal halide photoperiod. Now I'm starting to believe that if you're going to pound your SPS with intense lighting that one of two things must be present:

1. Measurable organics in the water column to help feed corals as they grow and photosynthesize.

2. Lots of supplementing and tweaking if you run low on nutrients or choose to run a full blown ULNS.

I'm inclined to believe that people who run a ULNS don't need as long of a photoperiod either.

Having enough NO3 and PO4 in the water to maximize growth and really bring out colors is obviously a balancing act that every reefkeeper has to figure out on their own. The combination of light, flow and organics is unique to each system. I have only 8 fish in a 200 gallon tank (Achilles Tang, Copperband Butterfly, Bellus Angel, Bipartitus Leopard Wrasse, Yellow Tailed Fiji Blue Devil, Tomato Clown, Dispar Anthias, and a Lyretail Anthias) but I feed them very well instead of getting more fish. This seems to be my tank's stabilization point to keep enough nutrients in the water and still have colorful sticks. There are many who can keep a ULNS successfully with lots of fish, supplements, etc. This has simply proven too much for me to do every day, and I still add a couple drops of Amino Acids and 1 drop per day of Lugol's Solution.

Since we're on the "nutrients" topic, I received 3 very colorful SPS frags today from a reputable online vendor. I tested the water and found nitrates were past the 10ppm reading that my Salifert kit could measure, and PO4 was .14! I realize that any sliming or other wastes that the corals could have released would have affected the small amount of shipping water, yet the tests were done on each of the 3 bags and came out the same. I found it very interesting and contradictory to what we've all believed over the years...or at least me. I think as long as your corals are colorful, growing and hair algae isn't growing everywhere, there may be some benefit in having a great cleanup crew and letting your tank tell you if it needs more or less nutrients.

It's refreshing to know that it can be done without having to strip the water of nutrients. Maybe I can spend more time now looking at the tank instead of fiddling with it.
 
Fair observation, Alex. There are some ULNS reefers that have hit a favorable balance from the get go as we've seen here, but most tanks take some adjusting. I know I've focused hard on moving certain variables on a number of systems including mixed reef, LPS, and SPS. I've also gone the go with the flow route. I haven't hit a balance right from a tank's inception yet. I suppose a reminder of some good advice in this field, which I see among veteran reefers, is ...If you're going to adjust your system --> make small changes. What's that saying? Nothing good happens fast in this hobby. :spin1: On another note, there can be an urge to render your system from another system you've seen to be of the highest caliber. The same procedures that system incorporates may not work for your system.

That being said, I've generally seen better SPS colors in (detectable) lower phosphate zones below 0.1. But there are the exceptions out there. Look to sirreal63's post for one. I personally want to detect something.

I'll toss in another phosphate writeup by Randy Holmes-Farle. This one happens to be from this year for those keeping track.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2012/3/chemistry

Cheers:beer:
 
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