How do you power your reef?

[billsreef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9544049#post9544049 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by virginiadiver69
Even at a $100k per year, it would be tough to live the green "life style" considering almost $25k for a hybrid car or $20k for solar panels. What's a person to do?

Indeed some of that technology is priced beyond many peoples means for the immediate outlay of cash needed. Hopefully things such as solar panels come down in price.

For some simple low budget things, simply replacing your incandescent light bulbs with power compacts is a great way to go. I've got 13watt PC bulbs everywhere now, even my garage floodlights. Heck of a savings (both financially and "carbon footprint") compared to running 75 or 100 watt incandescents.

For a more grand scale, support things like wind farms

 

[virginiadiver69]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9544429#post9544429 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by billsreef
Indeed some of that technology is priced beyond many peoples means for the immediate outlay of cash needed. Hopefully things such as solar panels come down in price.

For some simple low budget things, simply replacing your incandescent light bulbs with power compacts is a great way to go. I've got 13watt PC bulbs everywhere now, even my garage floodlights. Heck of a savings (both financially and "carbon footprint") compared to running 75 or 100 watt incandescents.

Good idea. That's why I went with t-5 lights on my aquarium. MH's just seem seem like an obscene waste of energy just for the pretty ripples on the water surface.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9544429#post9544429 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by billsreef
For a more grand scale, support things like wind farms

Do you mean support ideologically or practically?
I wouldn't know where to begin to figure out how to build a wind farm.

On a slightly different note; how do you deal with the water waste problem? I saw a report from UNICEF about the dire straights of the worlds drinking water. Along with the MASSIVE waste of energy that reef tanks contribute, the wastefulness of perfectly good drinking water is hard to justify. I mean could you imagine, rising global temps. AND no drinking water :eek1:

 

[billsreef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9544629#post9544629 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by virginiadiver69
Do you mean support ideologically or practically?
I wouldn't know where to begin to figure out how to build a wind farm.

Ideologically. I'm not one of those NIMBY's in regards to things like windmills. There are some plans for doing large scale wind farms offshore of Long Island, it's something I support and if should hit a ballet I'd vote that way too If I could put a windmill generator in my backyard I would, but currently they are against the zoning regulations in my town

On a slightly different note; how do you deal with the water waste problem? I saw a report from UNICEF about the dire straights of the worlds drinking water. Along with the MASSIVE waste of energy that reef tanks contribute, the wastefulness of perfectly good drinking water is hard to justify. I mean could you imagine, rising global temps. AND no drinking water :eek1:

In my case I have a nice deep well with fairly clean water that only needs some simple deionizing, no waste water Even if I did have "waste" water, it could be used for watering plants and washing things

 

[scottras]

Just to give you an idea, I am currently looking at a grid feed solar system for my house. Unfortunately it will be a few years till I can afford it, but to start with it will cost just over AUD$9000.00 (approx USD$6600) to get a 525W system installed complete. This system does not have batteries so it feeds power directly to the grid to offset your power bill. Then you can upgrade from there when you have the money. I am sure there would be better prices in the US (there is for just about everything else).

Wind power probably gets a better return and there are smaller units for domestic homes, but it usually depends on the area / neighbours / council if you can install one or not.

As for Waste water, I do not waste any water with my RO unit. All of the waste water goes straigh into the washing machine and gets used next wash. Sydney has a bit of a water crisis at the moment so it all helps. I will be changing it soon so that it goes directly into a rain water tank which will supply the washing machine, garden and hopefully toilets.

 

[billsreef]

I forget what power rating was on the solar systems I looked at awhile back, but they were quite a bit more than that.

Wish I could do a windmill, but several years ago (about 15 or 20) a guy down the road from me put one up. Lot's of people objected to it Hence the town added to the zoning laws to prevent anyone else from doing the same thing. This in a rural town with plenty of old windmills still standing from the days when they were used to run irrigation pumps

 

[virginiadiver69]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9544707#post9544707 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by scottras
I will be changing it soon so that it goes directly into a rain water tank which will supply the washing machine, garden and hopefully toilets.

This is kind of what I use. It has been borrowed from the cattle industry. I had a 2500 gal tank buried on my side yard when I built my house that collects rain water from my roof run off. It is used for all non-potable water needs.

 

[scottras]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9544834#post9544834 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by billsreef
I forget what power rating was on the solar systems I looked at awhile back, but they were quite a bit more than that.

Wish I could do a windmill, but several years ago (about 15 or 20) a guy down the road from me put one up. Lot's of people objected to it Hence the town added to the zoning laws to prevent anyone else from doing the same thing. This in a rural town with plenty of old windmills still standing from the days when they were used to run irrigation pumps

I am looking at the moment, but there is a wind turbine that can be put on the side of a house. It is basically a large cylinder with vanes to catch the wind and turn it. It only goes as high as the house so that most people would not see it. It would obviously need some fencing off as well but that is a possibility

There is also a guy in Aus that has invented a smaller turbine 1-5m diameters that are also very quite and efficient. But then trying to wade through the red tape of zoning laws is always hard if they see the word turbine.

Edit: found the silent turbine:
http://www.hushenergy.com.au/

 

[RichardS]

My preferred lighting for my reef tanks (plural) are metal halides. I like the ripples among other things.

I drive an F250 crewcab not because I need to, just because I like it.

Most of my home lighting is flourescent. Not because I think I'm saving the planet but because it saves me money.

In 3 years I will be installing a new roof on my home along with solar panels. Not because I think I'm going to save the planet but because it will save me money. I'm going to look into a windmill as well since I'm in 7 acres and on top of a hill. For the same reason.

I'm not under the illusion that those things will affect the global climate one way or another. I am not under the illusion that it is possible to be carbon neutral and still be breathing. Although when I get home I think I might kill my 130lb wolfhound puppy since he pumps alot of CO2 into the atmosphere...and because my wife just called and told me that he ate our coffee table.

A better topic might a realistic discussion of how much of an impact these small things can actually have. Apparently none of you will discuss that. It's a tough topic with no easy answers and so much easier to just stick with the talking points of whatever side of the fence your on, so I understand.

As far as having lots of wind farms, I think a whole bunch of birds are hoping we don't go that route. If we do and if it solves global warming then at least the environmentalists will have new cause to rally behind.

 

[scottras]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9546045#post9546045 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichardS
My preferred lighting for my reef tanks (plural) are metal halides. I like the ripples among other things.

I drive an F250 crewcab not because I need to, just because I like it.

Most of my home lighting is flourescent. Not because I think I'm saving the planet but because it saves me money.

In 3 years I will be installing a new roof on my home along with solar panels. Not because I think I'm going to save the planet but because it will save me money. I'm going to look into a windmill as well since I'm in 7 acres and on top of a hill. For the same reason.

I'm not under the illusion that those things will affect the global climate one way or another. I am not under the illusion that it is possible to be carbon neutral and still be breathing. Although when I get home I think I might kill my 130lb wolfhound puppy since he pumps alot of CO2 into the atmosphere...and because my wife just called and told me that he ate our coffee table.

A better topic might a realistic discussion of how much of an impact these small things can actually have. Apparently none of you will discuss that. It's a tough topic with no easy answers and so much easier to just stick with the talking points of whatever side of the fence your on, so I understand.

As far as having lots of wind farms, I think a whole bunch of birds are hoping we don't go that route. If we do and if it solves global warming then at least the environmentalists will have new cause to rally behind.

I have always thought that making it more economical to install solar/wind power is a great method to reduce carbon emmisions. I know you do not believ in AGW, and there are many more like you. But if it is cheaper for you to convert to alternative energy created by yourself, than staying on the grid, then a lot of people will do it. And the benefits are not just for the environment. There are many factors that will also help your local area.

I feel for you with your puppy. Mine is a 6mnth old Lab and she delights in destroying things while we are not home. I would hate to think what a puppy around three times her size could do.

Re the birds. No need to worry about that. Wind farm deaths are the most researched cause of bird deaths in the world. Communication towers, cats and the windows of large buildings cause many more deaths than wind farms could do.

The last estimates I saw in the US have estimated 100 million bird deaths a year to domestic cats compared to 5000 - 10000 deaths from turbines. The Exxon Valdez alone killed an estimated 500000 bird deaths. Newer research can even chose better sites so that death rate can be reduced.

 

[HippieSmell]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9544049#post9544049 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by virginiadiver69
I see were that could make it difficult. I assume you are either in school or just graduated. Been there, done that. Paying back student loans and just starting out can be tough.
Even at a $100k per year, it would be tough to live the green "life style" considering almost $25k for a hybrid car or $20k for solar panels. What's a person to do?

I've looked into some of the carbon credits and it looks like for just a couple of hundred dollars you can offset a TON of Co2. That seems like something even a "poor" ideological person could afford. I am new to this so, HIPPIE...which one do you use. I wouldn't want to do the equivalent of buying the Brooklyn bridge...if you know what I mean. How would I know that they are really planting the trees?

Wow, at first you almost said something nice to me. I'm shocked.

What is a person to do? Do what you can. You'll NEVER see me ragging on somebody that doesn't live completely 'green'. That isn't the point, and it isn't completely necessary. I do have a problem with people who insist that they can do whatever they want and refuse to open their eyes.

I've gone over what I do in a previous thread (fluorescent lights, plastic over the windows, house temp at 68 degrees in the winter, recycle, volunteer, blah blah). You may think that a couple hundred dollars to buy carbon credits is no big deal, but living expenses here are pretty high, and $200 to me is a couple months worth of anything other than basic living expenses. CF bulbs and sheets of plastic is it for me right now. I spent 5 years, and tens of thousands of dollars getting a college degree, and another YEAR trying to start a career in ecology. But, economics and other factors have just about destroyed that dream. Now I'm in the midst of a career change before the career even started. So, I've spent 6 years, lots of money, and lots of frustration trying to do what believe in. Maybe that will shed some light on why I get upset when people question my commitment.

However, I did find out about a program in Minnesota that requires the electric company to offer green power for those who ask for it (in MN it's windmills). It's a $0.02 premium per kW/h, so I'll give that a go. Everybody's power is already partially windmill because all of the windmill power goes into the grid anyway, so I'm not making the world any greener by doing it, but it sends a message to the power companies. Bottom line is I'm doing all I've been asking of people. Do little things, make some effort, and support green(er) tech with your wallets, your voice, and your votes.

 

[RichardS]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9546406#post9546406 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by scottras
I know you do not believ in AGW, and there are many more like you.

Actually I have never said that. The earth is getting warmer, that is not debated by anyone. What I have said in another thread is that the debate over whether or not humans are causing it is a rather pointless debate. Any fool can look around and tell that we certainly aren't helping the environment. So I'm not against solar panels, tidal power, windmills. These are all good things.

Let's assume for the sake of discussion that GW is 100% caused by humans. The point I have made to you in the other thread is that these green alternatives that you and the GW proponents keep talking about are never going to be able to reduce CO2 emissions enough to reverse the oncoming disaster that you say is about to happen. Instead of responding to that point you say fission is too expensive and dangerous but fusion will be the answer. Well fusion doesn't exist so I guess it's easy to say it'll be cheap and safe. I'm no scientist but my guess is a meltdown of a fusion reactor might have the potential to be a bit worse than chernobyl.

It seems to me that you, Hippie, Al Gore and pretty much every other GW proponent that I have heard speak are simply using GW to promote your world view/political view. Although in Al Gore's case I think it's more of a case of him finding a way to make some money and/or simply be relevant.

Why isn't regrowth of the worlds destroyed rainforests the number one goal of the GW camp? That would do more than everyone getting solar panels. Heck, even Hippie has admitted that the US is a net CO2 sink do to regrowth of forests (of course we are still really really bad). I think things like this or nuclear energy or cleaner use of fossil fuels are not on the agenda because they don't punish or lay blame the right people. I may be wrong about that but I'm quite certain that saving the environment from imminent disaster is not the goal of the GW movement. Hmmm....GW movement, almost sounds like a political party doesn't it? Ahh..but no politics on rc so I'll stop now.

 

[RichardS]

Oh I almost forgot...

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-01-04-windmills-usat_x.htm

 

[scottras]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9547566#post9547566 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichardS
Oh I almost forgot...

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-01-04-windmills-usat_x.htm

Just goes to show that a lot of research needs to go into the placement of the wind farms. Unfortunately sometimes the placement gets a little political. In Australia we recently had the federal government step in to stop a wind farm in Victoria. The reason given was to save an endangered parrot. Of course the parrot was never seen in the area, but it could have killed one per year. Over in Tasmania a wind farm was approved by the federal govt that is actually in the migratory path of the same parrot.

 

[RichardS]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9547651#post9547651 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by scottras
Just goes to show that a lot of research needs to go into the placement of the wind farms. Unfortunately sometimes the placement gets a little political.

Oh, I thought you had said it was nothing to worry about. My mistake I guess.

 

[scottras]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9547751#post9547751 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichardS
Oh, I thought you had said it was nothing to worry about. My mistake I guess.

The amount of bird deaths wind farms cause is small compared to other source. This can be reduced by better research into placement. You really are doing your best to be provocative.

 

[Ninong]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9548578#post9548578 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by scottras
The amount of bird deaths wind farms cause is small compared to other source. This can be reduced by better research into placement.

The total number of birds killed per year in the Altamont Pass is estimated at approximately 5,000 -- including 70 golden eagles. The Altamont is one of the richest raptor habitats in the world with the highest density of nesting golden eagles in the world. This is unfortunate and steps are being taken to reduce the number of birds killed but deaths from wind turbines is a very small relative risk to birds. Total deaths from wind turbines nationally is estimated at about 30,000. Tens of millions of birds are killed annually by pesticides, tens of millions of birds are killed annually by communication towers, tens of millions of birds are killed annually by vehicles, tens of millions of birds are killed annually by house cats and hundreds of millions of birds are killed annually by buildings and windows.

Having lived in Tracy for five years, I can tell you that the issue of wind turbines killing raptors is taken very seriously there. Unfortunately, those wind farms were erected two decades ago without much consideration for the potential impact on birds and bats. Alameda, San Joaquin and Contra Costa counties have forced the various energy companies involved in these operations to take steps to mitigate the impact on birds. Some of the energy companies have hired avian experts to advise them on measures to reduce bird fatalities.

The older 75-ft tall turbines are being replaced by 211-ft tall models. The taller models are above the hunting range of most of the raptors. And placing the wind turbines on the leeward side of the hills reduces their impact on raptors because they prefer to hunt on the windward side, where they soar on the updrafts. Many of these turbines are ready for replacement anyway. They were first generation technology that was installed more than 20 years ago. The newer, larger models are more efficient as well as being less deadly to birds.

 

[RichardS]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9548578#post9548578 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by scottras
You really are doing your best to be provocative.

I can't help it because you still refuse to even respond to the issue I have repeatedly brought up.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9547343#post9547343 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichardS
The point I have made to you in the other thread is that these green alternatives that you and the GW proponents keep talking about are never going to be able to reduce CO2 emissions enough to reverse the oncoming disaster that you say is about to happen. Instead of responding....

I really would like to hear some kind of explanation. All of you have so many scientific facts surely you can respond in some meaningful fashion. Let me try one more time in the form of questions not statements but first....

FACT 1: Earth is facing a GW disaster at the hands on mankind in somewhere between 100 years or as little as a couple of decades.
FACT 2: We need to get away from fossil fuels. Nuclear energy is off the table. Instead we go to solar, wind, tidal power and hopefully someday fusion power.

Ok, that's what I have gathered from the many posts on this subject. I think I left a few green energy sources off. It was not deliberate and this isn't a setup. These are real questions...

So the questions are -

1.) Not including fusion because it doesn't exist and you can't say when or if it ever will (unless you actually know that). How much of an impact can we realistically expect those green alternative energy sources to make on the world's energy requirements?
2.) If we all started TODAY how long would it take to switch the world over to these alternative energy sources to achieve the answer from question #1?
3.) Taking into account that the earth's population is expected to increase to 9.4 billion in 43 years (around a 50% increase) will these alternative energy sources stop the predicted GW disaster? If yes, How?

Ya'll (yeah I'm texan) have quoted boatloads of science on GW so can you answer these questions with some accuracy? Anybody?


Again, this isn't a setup. I'm really not completely on either side of the fence and if ALL scientists agree tomorrow that there is no such thing as GW then I still think we should make an effort to move towards cleaner fuel technologies. Many reasons for that without the GW issue.

I really wasn't trying to make this a thread about birds so I'll leave that alone.

 

[HippieSmell]

Well, to answer your question: http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/editors/17381/
This includes nuclear power, which I've never been completely against, but we have got to figure out what to do with the waste, especially if we are going to build many more plants. I just don't know how nuclear power will be feasible considering there are three high profile international nuclear issues right now. I guess current nuclear powers can use nuclear, and the non nuclear countries can't. Anyway. There is a bit of a sticker shock associated with going alternative, but keep in mind that it isn't a money pit. The money spent will stay in the country and spur new industries, but I'm sure the money will have to be generated through taxes, initially at least. Would it be easy? No, but I can't imagine the alternative will be any cheaper.

 

[virginiadiver69]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9546653#post9546653 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by HippieSmell

I've gone over what I do in a previous thread (fluorescent lights, plastic over the windows, house temp at 68 degrees in the winter, recycle, volunteer, blah blah).

That's all nice but...your regular home owner that is unaware of the impending demise does these things.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9546653#post9546653 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by HippieSmell
You may think that a couple hundred dollars to buy carbon credits is no big deal, but living expenses here are pretty high, and $200 to me is a couple months worth of anything other than basic living expenses. CF bulbs and sheets of plastic is it for me right now.

I would think that anybody could scrape together what amounts to "less than a dollar a day" to help save the world.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9546653#post9546653 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by HippieSmell
I spent 5 years, and tens of thousands of dollars getting a college degree, and another YEAR trying to start a career in ecology. But, economics and other factors have just about destroyed that dream.

I thought it was "ecology destroyed the economy".
Wouldn't it be ironic if that were really true? think about it, you spend 5 yrs getting a degree in something you are passionate about, IT destroys the economy, now you can't do everything possible to do what you went into ecology for in the first place.

Don't worry though, you seem like a smart person and I'm sure you will make it.

 

[HippieSmell]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9553532#post9553532 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by virginiadiver69
That's all nice but...your regular home owner that is unaware of the impending demise does these things.

Do they? Everybody? There's a big difference between 20% and 100%. If I was jetting around the word for vacation, and was spending thousands of dollars more every month than I do, I would feel the need to pull more weight. Hopefully, I'll be in that position some day. Probably the position you're in.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9553532#post9553532 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by virginiadiver69
I would think that anybody could scrape together what amounts to "less than a dollar a day" to help save the world.

You're Sally Struthers all of a sudden? You can judge me all you want, but my guess is that I'm still a lot more 'green' than you are.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9553532#post9553532 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by virginiadiver69
I thought it was "ecology destroyed the economy".
Wouldn't it be ironic if that were really true? think about it, you spend 5 yrs getting a degree in something you are passionate about, IT destroys the economy, now you can't do everything possible to do what you went into ecology for in the first place.

Don't worry though, you seem like a smart person and I'm sure you will make it.

It is a joke. Our economy DEPENDS on the ecology, remember that.

Thanks for the compliment. Maybe in real life you're not always abrasive.