How likely is hybridization is home aquaria?

[fishkid6692]

So here's a little back story, years ago I bought the first "tigerpyge" to come into the U.S. I fell in love with that fish like no other. When I went away to school I sold off my tanks and fish because I was going to be 1000 miles away and my grandfather wasn't comfortable taking care of all the tanks by himself which was understandable. When I finished school I wanted to buy the tigerpyge back but the price I sold it for was now offered back to me at almost quadruple the cost, so that was an unfortunate let down. I didn't have a job and after having the time to "mature" over the few years away, I didn't want to have my grandfather fund my saltwater addiction. Fast forward about a year, I still wanted that hybrid. So I bought a small lemon peel angel and a large eibli angel to attempt to spawn and raise my own. I've had them for maybe 2 months in a 29 tall at my parents house and 2 days ago I watched spawning behavior and collected what looked to be eggs. From what I can see the 5 "eggs" I managed to collect(have to find a better way then scooping if I'm gonna give this a real go) never hatched and I can't even find them in the container. My main question is, is it possible for them to produce fertile eggs? Ive watched plenty of spawning videos and I'm sure of what I saw but I haven't seen eggs over the past 2 days again. The larger will do a shimmy about half way up the tank and they'll do a sort of dance around each other but no rise like witnessed before. I don't want to get my hopes up and start getting cultures ready so any input would be great.

 

[Dkuhlmann]

There are many threads on breeding all kinds of fish in the breeding forum here on RC. Maybe do a search on it. That Tigerpyge is surely a beautiful fish!

Is that a picture of yours in your avatar? If so can you share more pictures please.

 

[o2manyfish]

When they spawn it's a pretty noticeable cloud that the 2 fish create.

You can sometimes see the behavior over and over again without them actually spawning.

In my tank when the Flameback angels spawn, they do the same spawning behavior over and over and over and then finally there is a cloud between them. Then all the anthias and other fish dive in the clear the water. I've watched my Flamebacks spawn and bellus I have never been able to identify individual eggs.

Dave B

 

[fishkid6692]

Yeah I know I witnessed at least one actual spawning in which eggs were released but my question is, is it possible for these eggs to actually be fertilized even though it's two different species?

 

[Dkuhlmann]

If they are hermaphrodite then yes. By the true definition the can breed without a mate.

 

[albano]

If they are hermaphrodite then yes. By the true definition the can breed without a mate.

And how would that produce a hybrid?

 

[Dkuhlmann]

It wouldn't and I'm not sure where my mind was at the time I posted that. It was one of those "DOHHHH" moments.

Yes it's possible for the eggs to be fertilized by the two different species, the proof is the hybrid tigerpyge.

 

[ca1ore]

I'm not up on captive breeding of dwarf angels - have any of them actually been bred in captivity? Seems to me they're all wild caught. I think the idea to cross breed a tigerpyge is an excellent one (I'll buy one of the babies ) but probably gonna take a while - but with a handle like fishkid I assume the OP is young ...... :lol:.

 

[anbosu]

I think Frank at RCT did it a while ago and restarted again recently, with the intent to create hybrids not normally found in the ocean. I'm not sure where that project ended up, but it's been done. The challenge with operations like this is scale - how do you scale enough to get your costs down without sacrificing yield?

 

[fishkid6692]

I'm not up on captive breeding of dwarf angels - have any of them actually been bred in captivity? Seems to me they're all wild caught. I think the idea to cross breed a tigerpyge is an excellent one (I'll buy one of the babies ) but probably gonna take a while - but with a handle like fishkid I assume the OP is young ...... :lol:.

Haha I was only 14 when I joined reefcentral but I'm 22 now. I've successfully raised clowns and mandarins so I have an idea of what I'm doing. I just finished school and im pursuing breeding full time at the moment so I think if I can get viable eggs I have a good shot at this. It doesn't hurt having others breeding journals to go by, especially Karen's. Is there any way I can change my RC handle so I'm taken a little bit more(not too much ) seriously haha?

 

[fishkid6692]

Oh and yes centropyges have been successfully raised in captivity by a few people that I know of. From I've read its a full time job which is why it isn't a common practice. Luckily I have all the time in the world.

 

[Dmorty217]

I'm not up on captive breeding of dwarf angels - have any of them actually been bred in captivity? Seems to me they're all wild caught. I think the idea to cross breed a tigerpyge is an excellent one (I'll buy one of the babies ) but probably gonna take a while - but with a handle like fishkid I assume the OP is young ...... :lol:.

Karen has bred the Venustus... But that's Karen

 

[ca1ore]

Yes, right, I'd forgotten about that.

 

[ThRoewer]

If they are hermaphrodite then yes. By the true definition the can breed without a mate.

No they can't breed without a mate.
They are sequential protogynous hermaphrodites (first female then male), not simultaneous hermaphrodites (both, male and female at the same time).

They start out in life as females and turn into males at a later stage in their live, likely only when they become the dominant individual of a group. So they are either female or male but never both at the same time.

 

[caribfan]

Meant to comment on this a while back. I think the source I'd like to hear from on this is Copps and maybe Karen if she's around.

Are you saying you actually had the lemonpeel and eibli courting eachother.

From my understanding, most of the hybrids come from a swarm type of breeding behavior, where multiple species are engaged in breeding rituals at the same time and the eggs and sperm get cross contaminated.

Having said that, I totally have two venustus and a multifasciatus and a lemonpeel and an eibli in hopes of having the same thing happen that you described in your original post.

Copps and Karen, if you are out there and have time, I'd be curious to hear your thoughts. Does hybridization occur because two separate species court eachother or because of cross contamination?

 

[george915]

2 separate species, and even 2 hybrids, can definitely mate. I have one Blue spot (C. flavissima X C. vrolikii) and one Tigerpyge (C. flavissima X C. eibli). They do the mating dance regularly. I have a video somewhere posted on RC a while ago.

 

[albano]

2 separate species, and even 2 hybrids, can definitely mate. I have one Blue spot (C. flavissima X C. vrolikii) and one Tigerpyge (C. flavissima X C. eibli). They do the mating dance regularly. I have a video somewhere posted on RC a while ago.

Is this it?... http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2482088

 

[caribfan]

2 separate species, and even 2 hybrids, can definitely mate. I have one Blue spot (C. flavissima X C. vrolikii) and one Tigerpyge (C. flavissima X C. eibli). They do the mating dance regularly. I have a video somewhere posted on RC a while ago.

How cool, great collection of fish, btw. Not to get off topic, but how did you come by your pair of semilarvatus? Ever see any spawning behavior between them.