How many do not quarantine?

[CrayolaViolence]

The things is, I doubt there is a living creature on this planet, you, me, and everyone on RC that is void of parasites, bacteria, and or viruses. On the human body alone, we have a variety of mites, and I'm sure many who go barefoot even have intestinal worms. We escaped the physical symptoms by having a healthy immune system. Some people take stress better than others, just as some fish take stress. Parasites, bacteria, and virus are often opportunistic which is why stress is often a catalyst for any illness (including in people). I agree that the wholesale market is stressful on a fish, but I'm willing to bet that the catching of an animal and placing it in a foreign environment (like your aquarium) is equally stressful. I would dare say, unless the fish has been wormed and treated for disease, it is infected with something, if it comes out of the ocean. Fish raised in farms might be able to hit the market free of disease, but they will also have no immunity to it because they have never been exposed--and they will be exposed when they hit an aquarium with other fish.
I really appreciate those who have contributed their experiences. I'm hoping others will continue to chime in. One other thing I'd like to ask those who have had no issues without QTing, what is your average number of gallons per fish. Basically if you have a 100 gallon tank and only 5 fish then that would be 20 gallons per fish.

 

[DasCamel]

Been doing this 3 years. QT treated fish just make life easier. I started off with a half asses QT and got hit by brook in the DT. My original clown first fish bought, came up with it.

Managed to catch it in time, treat her, isolate and save her to this day. Learned a ton in the process.

So, yes, every fish going in the 375g will be dewormed, tank transferred, and observed for two months.

Ever since I implemented strict procedures, never had a random fish death. Lost a couple due to a 1000 mile move. One managed to suicide out due to a small hole in the screen for power cables. But everyone became fat, happy, and more visible.

If they weren't healthy, move never would have worked.

Anyway, have fun with the QT. Once you get a system implemented, takes care of issues you never think you had.

 

[Green Chromis]

:fish1::fish1::fish1:

I'm curious to know by what diagnostic tools you use to test the fish and determine they are free of parasites when freshly caught from the ocean? Because I'll be honest, every fish I have ever caught, fresh or salt water, and cut open (as I fish to eat) has been full of worms of some sort. That being parasites visible to the eye. I can only imagine what they have that I can't see.

:fish1: Back in the day, before reef keeping was some what easier to do, I would lose a few fish in my then systems, mostly from lack of knowledge of how to maintain a particular fish in my system. I would bring these fish to our school lab, and we would dissect them, to try and figure out what went wrong. As you state most fish have parasites, and all parasites are not harmful to healthy fish, but when a fish becomes stressed from poor handling and shipping, it's immune system weakens, thus allowing the said parasites to overwhelm them, thus leading to their decline, and if not properly treated, their death. I don't know how much diving experience you have, but you hardly, if ever see a sick fish on a reef, as they become fish food very quickly, and yes I have caught a huge amount of fish, mostly saltwater for food and bait, and believe me most, if not all, are not ridden with parasites, due to a weak immune system. Enough with this discussion, some fish have harmful parasites, but not enough to hurt them if they are healthy, so good luck with your future systems, and fishy friends, and please don't over crowd them. :fish1:

 

[Green Chromis]

Oh, I think that does disqualify you from the no QT thing. LOL. You have fish that did not go thru the collector/wholesaler/retailer chain. Pretty cool.

:fish1: Yes, it is very cool, to be able to dive on a reef and collect your own fish for your system. It really is a different feeling, knowing you caught your own fish, and to see the environment, they live in. Also all my fish have names, and are hand feed. :fish1:

 

[Green Chromis]

The things is, I doubt there is a living creature on this planet, you, me, and everyone on RC that is void of parasites, bacteria, and or viruses. On the human body alone, we have a variety of mites, and I'm sure many who go barefoot even have intestinal worms. We escaped the physical symptoms by having a healthy immune system. Some people take stress better than others, just as some fish take stress. Parasites, bacteria, and virus are often opportunistic which is why stress is often a catalyst for any illness (including in people). I agree that the wholesale market is stressful on a fish, but I'm willing to bet that the catching of an animal and placing it in a foreign environment (like your aquarium) is equally stressful. I would dare say, unless the fish has been wormed and treated for disease, it is infected with something, if it comes out of the ocean. Fish raised in farms might be able to hit the market free of disease, but they will also have no immunity to it because they have never been exposed--and they will be exposed when they hit an aquarium with other fish.
I really appreciate those who have contributed their experiences. I'm hoping others will continue to chime in. One other thing I'd like to ask those who have had no issues without QTing, what is your average number of gallons per fish. Basically if you have a 100 gallon tank and only 5 fish then that would be 20 gallons per fish.

:fish1: Hi, in my system, I have six fish, which one could obtain a size of 12" or so, if the fish reaches maximum size in my system. So that would be 1 fish for every 100 gallons, and I do believe they are still, a little over crowed. :fish1:

 

[laga77]

I have six tanks and 52 fish. The oldest being 5 years and the newest being 13 months. I believe all fish are contaminated because of the poor conditions of the supply chain. The only fish I have lost to disease in the past five years, are those who have died in the first month after purchase. About 10 in total. Some showed signs of disease, and some did not. I also believe it is better to try to maintain healthy fish with strong immune systems than try to eliminate all diseases. I have a QT tank, but it is more of an observation tank than QT because there are three fish that live in there permanently, a Chinstrap jawfish and a Redtail Butterfly and a Dragon Wrasse. These three fish have seen over 20 different fish from 8 different LFS and 3 online sites come and go over the last three years. The only drug used in that time has been prazi. There has been 2 fish from on-line and 1 local store that had visible signs of ich when put in this tank yet the two fish that stay in there have never been infected. The last time I lost fish to disease was 5 years this month. I lost all the fish I had except for a YWG in a 50G reef. After waiting about a month, I started restocking. The difference this time was I worked very hard to maintain stable water quality with few and small swings in parameters and eliminating all dry foods by feeding only fresh, live and frozen items. The diet, I believe is the main reason. Fish can handle poor WC better than poor diet. With all the time and money I have invested in this hobby, If I thought that extensive QT was worth it I would surely do it. The fact is, there is no way of knowing if the measures taken are effective. Quarantine needs to be 100% if it is to work. Eliminating 99.999% of a parasite is not a good defense. Especially if the rest of the population has no immunity to it.

 

[ktownhero]

I never quarantined in the past, but then again I only ever kept a 10g and 20g (long) tank with clownfish. With my Reefer 425XL, I opted to establish a 10g QT and it was way easier than I had expected. I successfully QT'd a pair of clowns and am working on 3 additional members right now. It really isn't too bad to do and it is nice having the peace of mind.

So, yes, I personally have had success without it. But I still opted to go with it later in my career as a hobbyist. I just have more resources now than in the past, and what's $50 to set up a 10g QT in the grand scheme of things?

 

[Joe0813]

People that do not QT most likely have ich in their system. They just haven't had a outbreak yet

 

[CrayolaViolence]

:fish1: Hi, in my system, I have six fish, which one could obtain a size of 12" or so, if the fish reaches maximum size in my system. So that would be 1 fish for every 100 gallons, and I do believe they are still, a little over crowed. :fish1:

If you have one fish for every 100 gallons, I think that right there is why you've been so lucky without quarantining.

 

[CrayolaViolence]

People that do not QT most likely have ich in their system. They just haven't had a outbreak yet

Anyone who hasn't treated a fish for parasites, bacteria, etc, probably has those bugs in their system. The thing I am curious to know is why some people don't have a problem with an outbreak and why others do. One thing I've noticed for the most part, is people with fewer fish (i.e. more gallons per fish) seem to do better than those who have less gallons per fish.

Personally I know a long time reefer, who QTs everything. And like clockwork every 18 months to two years all his fish die. He tests his water, keeps the conditions immaculate, but in my opinion he has too many fish for the size tank he has and fish that require more room than the tank can give, and he doesn't provide enough hiding spaces and the fish are constantly fighting over the best "spot".

But he also doesn't treat/worm fish when they come into his system. He has an observation QT and that is all.

The reason I mention this is I've seen other tanks kept by people in other countries, where they have very, and I mean very, high stocking ratios where the fish are nearly fin to fin, yet their fish are healthy, long lived, and grow to be immense. So far, all of them seem to treat fish before they enter their system, even if it's only a formaldin dip.

 

[sirclintler]

Fish yes, corals only get a coral rx dip

 

[Green Chromis]

Anyone who hasn't treated a fish for parasites, bacteria, etc, probably has those bugs in their system. The thing I am curious to know is why some people don't have a problem with an outbreak and why others do. One thing I've noticed for the most part, is people with fewer fish (i.e. more gallons per fish) seem to do better than those who have less gallons per fish.

Personally I know a long time reefer, who QTs everything. And like clockwork every 18 months to two years all his fish die. He tests his water, keeps the conditions immaculate, but in my opinion he has too many fish for the size tank he has and fish that require more room than the tank can give, and he doesn't provide enough hiding spaces and the fish are constantly fighting over the best "spot".

But he also doesn't treat/worm fish when they come into his system. He has an observation QT and that is all.

The reason I mention this is I've seen other tanks kept by people in other countries, where they have very, and I mean very, high stocking ratios where the fish are nearly fin to fin, yet their fish are healthy, long lived, and grow to be immense. So far, all of them seem to treat fish before they enter their system, even if it's only a formaldin dip.

:fish1: 50 fish in any size tank is crowding the fish, unless the tank is in the tens thousands of gallons range. Next time you are diving on a reef, observe how many fish you see on said reef, and try to visualize the hundreds of thousands of gallons of water you see on a small reef, and the amount of fresh seawater circulating on it, then you might get an idea the size of a tank you would need to house 50 fish, with an open system, if you were mimic nature. Keep doing what works best for you as I will do the same, and the reason my fish are healthy, is they are disease free, and have no harmful parasites. :fish1:

 

[karimwassef]

It isn't linear. The larger a tank is, the more fish/gal it can handle.
For example:
If you have a 20 gal tank, you cannot have even 1 yellow tang.
If you have a 200 gal tank, you can have 2 yellow tangs.
If you have a 2000 gal tank, you can have 30 yellow tangs.

The numbers aren't exact obviously, but you get the point.

 

[CrayolaViolence]

It isn't linear. The larger a tank is, the more fish/gal it can handle.
For example:
If you have a 20 gal tank, you cannot have even 1 yellow tang.
If you have a 200 gal tank, you can have 2 yellow tangs.
If you have a 2000 gal tank, you can have 30 yellow tangs.

The numbers aren't exact obviously, but you get the point.

While I understand the larger the tank the more fish. I'm not sure of your formula for fish per gallons?

 

[karimwassef]

My point is that it isn't a fixed ratio.
The ratio above is

0.0 fish/100 gal at 20gal
1.0 fish/100 gal at 200gal
1.5 fish/100 gal at 2000gal

That's what I mean by non-linear. It's not a fixed #/gal.

It also depends on structure and complexity. In the end, fish have to feel safe. That's a combination of the right balance of hidden vs. open space.

I created a complex structure of artificial rock that allows fish to swim continuously without being trapped in a corner. Every cave had two exits and most rocks formed a loop of swimable water space. So, even the smallest fish could avoid being harassed...

 

[BlackTip]

I QT all of my fishes, however my friend who has been in the hobby for over 20 years and own a 240g tank never QT fish or corals.

Since he moved his tank a year ago, he added many fishes brought from LA and LFS. He acclimate and put in the DT. He has far less casualties than me. The only fishes he lost are because a powerhead or overflow box accident. His livestock are healthy and I have never seen one with disease. I am going to continue QT, however.

 

[saf1]

:fish1: 50 fish in any size tank is crowding the fish, unless the tank is in the tens thousands of gallons range. Next time you are diving on a reef, observe how many fish you see on said reef, and try to visualize the hundreds of thousands of gallons of water you see on a small reef, and the amount of fresh seawater circulating on it, then you might get an idea the size of a tank you would need to house 50 fish, with an open system, if you were mimic nature. Keep doing what works best for you as I will do the same, and the reason my fish are healthy, is they are disease free, and have no harmful parasites. :fish1:

Active diver here, and agree with fish population vs. open water. However, it is a bit detracting here because there are people with successful tanks with more than 50 fish in 400 gallons of water. More to the point of the thread and OP's question in general is that it is controversial by nature.

You hit the nail on the head though by stating keep doing what works best for you. What can be surmised by the thread is this. There is "no" right way to build a home aquaria saltwater reef. If there was then it would be the base we all build upon. Since we don't and no two systems are alike these posts come up from time to time.

To clarify just search the large tank subforum for O2manyfish or any others. Amazing tanks housing greater than 50 fish...

 

[CrayolaViolence]

SAF1---exactly. Thank you. I still hope to hear from others and thank you to everyone so far who have been brave enough to chime in.

 

[ca1ore]

Anyone who hasn't treated a fish for parasites, bacteria, etc, probably has those bugs in their system. The thing I am curious to know is why some people don't have a problem with an outbreak and why others do. One thing I've noticed for the most part, is people with fewer fish (i.e. more gallons per fish) seem to do better than those who have less gallons per fish.

That's a very different question. I agree that many parasites may be laying 'dormant' in ones tank, only to rear an ugly head when a susceptible animal is added. Why some have one experience, others a different one is difficult to say - well, beyond idle speculation, that is. I've not noted any causation between ich and fish load; though I suppose an overcrowded tank puts undue stress on the fish .

 

[ca1ore]

:fish1: 50 fish in any size tank is crowding the fish, unless the tank is in the tens thousands of gallons range. Next time you are diving on a reef, observe how many fish you see on said reef, and try to visualize the hundreds of thousands of gallons of water you see on a small reef, and the amount of fresh seawater circulating on it, then you might get an idea the size of a tank you would need to house 50 fish, with an open system, if you were mimic nature. Keep doing what works best for you as I will do the same, and the reason my fish are healthy, is they are disease free, and have no harmful parasites. :fish1:

It's a poor analogy, even with the cute little fishy brackets. Every fish tank known to man 'overcrowds' the fish if an open reef is your point of reference. Indeed, it is that infinite volume than renders something like ich far less problematic in an open reef than in our tanks (and accounts for the reproductive strategy). Whether your fish are parasite free I cannot say, though I recall studies suggesting that an average wild caught fish has something like 26 parasites.