I think Ich is a farce

[jamesbaur13]

I really hope my argument is wrong.

In the past, I myself backed your own recommendations.

I have been in this hobby for a little over a year. I have encountered ich. I took the recommended protocol to rid my display of ich (10 weeks). Within 3 days of introduction my fish contracted ich again.

They still have it, but it's no where as detrimental as everyone makes it out to be.

Why did i go fallow for 10wks? What did this do?

Although unsuccessful my fish are fine.

This cost me a significant amount of money. With the tanks, powerheads, heaters I needed to buy. What did I get out of this?

Those who advocate the protocols I used... you created this rebuttal and the way I look at it, you owe me an answer.

 

[gone fishin]

James I don't think you are going to find the explanation your looking for. Like some many things in this hobby there are so many differing opinions on how to do things. For myself I read and take advice and develop my own style of how I operate my tanks. sometimes it works out sometimes not. I wish you luck in your future endeavors.

 

[swcc]

I really hope my argument is wrong.

In the past, I myself backed your own recommendations.

I have been in this hobby for a little over a year. I have encountered ich. I took the recommended protocol to rid my display of ich (10 weeks). Within 3 days of introduction my fish contracted ich again.

They still have it, but it's no where as detrimental as everyone makes it out to be.

Why did i go fallow for 10wks? What did this do?

Although unsuccessful my fish are fine.

This cost me a significant amount of money. With the tanks, powerheads, heaters I needed to buy. What did I get out of this?

Those who advocate the protocols I used... you created this rebuttal and the way I look at it, you owe me an answer.

the answer is....ignore folks and run a UV. 10-20x flow per watt works no matter what anyone says.

 

[Paul B]

I just did a 4 page thread on this if anyone is interested so I won't do it again here. Many of the same contributers posted there so if you are interested, it is here.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2207324

 

[swcc]

Heck I'll say it... if ick "wiped out your tank".. well schleprock... take up tiddly winks... you are not fit to care for a salt water aquarium...LMAO... joking...
I personally cannot ever see how ick can wipe out a tank... Then again I never kept a reef tank or any salt water aquarium in the condition I see time and time again on forums.

 

[Mr.6LineWrasse]

I'm with James.
In my experience with Ick, if I saw a fish with one or two white dots, I marinate the food in garlic, and that's all. Never lost a fish to Ick, ever. Yes, it will spread if all your fish are in a stressful environment, that's a giving. If you try to catch a fish, at the least the fish will be stressed, and may be injured from the plight. Then plop it into a unknown small QT tank will just further the stress. I say, as long as the aquarium is established, healthy, and as stress-free as possible, and the fish has small numbers of Ick and is still eating, leave it be. Again, my experience alone and based on MY own experience, I've gathered my own theory of getting rid Ick.

 

[jazzman7838]

Fallow period... removing all fish, treating with copper/hypo/tank transfer. while the tank goes fallow 10 weeks to starve out 99.5% of the known ich strains.

Yeah, I agree that that is a bit much.

I always QT every fish before it goes in my tanks. Part of it is disease prevention, but mostly it is to get fish eating well on prepared foods and rehabilitate their immune system and bodies before adding them into a space where they will have to fight for food and territory. There are so many good reasons besides preventing disease to QT fish.

 

[billsreef]

Ich by itself does not kill fish. Only when aided by another element does this happen.

Sometimes that other element is simply the confines of being trapped in a small glass box with a parasite. Think the old fox in a hen house analogy

As for your particular situation, I've no idea how you treated the fish while leaving the tank fallow, so can't provide any insight without merely guessing.

 

[led stony]

I dont think garlic or ginger do anything. I have a powder blue tang that has it for 5 weeks since added and he eats, i have tryied everything and he still has it. He will become immune to it or have it on him all the time or die. I let the 10 weeks go by with no out breaks befor i added him.

 

[jamesbaur13]

As for your particular situation, I've no idea how you treated the fish while leaving the tank fallow, so can't provide any insight without merely guessing.

10 weeks tank transfer throughout the entire treatment... I didn't stop transfer after 12 days, I kept going the full 10 weeks. I chose to do it throughout the entire time to eliminate even the most miniscule chance that one cyst could slip by. In addition, fish were initially given a Formalin dip between the transfers to sanitize the water they were in and the surfaces of their bodies... this was done on their first 4 transfers. I also treated all the fish with prazi-pro for 2 weeks... as long as they were out I figured it isn't going to hurt. I know without doubt those fish were completely free of ich before they went back in. As I said, once re-introduced to the display within 3 days the fish began to re-develop spots.

 

[tmz]

Sorry, but yeah. I really don't see this protozoan as being anything more serious than having fecal staff bacteria in your home. I saw that Mythbuster's episode... literally, sh!t is everywhere. Heaven forbid I get a cut, with all that fecal staff bacteria around I'm bound to get an infection ...right?

I'm not going to go into why I don't get an infection... you all have heard that. I'm also not going to go into why my fish don't get Ich, you all have heard that too.

I'd like to focus on prevention and cures, although my opening statement contradicts that... I'd still like to do it, but oh well.

My question is, why can we not just accept it and deal with it? Because it kills large numbers of fish and can be prevented and treated.


The opening comments for his thread are some of the silliest , most uniformed irresponsible I've seen and I've read lot's of threads. Bluntly, it stinks about as much as the analogy to feces.

Uv won't treat on control ich.,btw.

There are plenty of good treatment options articulated in the fish disease forum. I don't intend to waste more time here.

 

[jamesbaur13]

Because it kills large numbers of fish

Nope, not buying it.

 

[laurie64]

I have been dealing with a most resistant strain of ich that I could just not get off of a few fish I have. Even my LFS killed one row of their salt system to get rid of it. In the thirty years that I have kept marines, I have never witnessed a store kill one of their systems. I myself did everything I could do to remove the parasite, and even after a very long fallow period, any new qt fish introduced to that tank broke out. Depends on what strain you encounter, and I hope you have continued luck with your tank and never run into one of those strains that are unbeatable. They are out there.......

 

[JSeymour]

James, I understand questioning long standing beliefs in order to progress in this hobby. That's how this hobby has gotten to where it is today, people pushing the envelope. The problem is you are challenging things that are thoroughly documented by biologists, millions of dollars of research by marine aquaculture facilities, and decades of anecdotal evidence from hobbyists. Marine ich is very lethal in closed systems, there is no scientific doubt to this.

Since you like analogies, here is one for you. Fleas, ticks, lice, and mites are all very common exo-parasites for all wild mammals. Anyone who has skinned a deer can tell you this. These parasites pose very little danger to these animals in the wild. Yet take these very same parasites and introduce them to your healthy family dog. Without treatment, your dog could very well die from secondary infections or anemia. At the very least, without treatment, your dogs hair will thin and and "hot spots" will develop from severe irritation.

Why is there this difference between the wild and captivity? Wild animals live in complex ecosystems that they have evolved to utilize for survival. When a home territory has become overwhelmed with parasites, the wild animals can leave the area. The wild animals can take mud baths to suffocate parasites or attract "cleaner" species to eat their parasites. In some cases, they may even eat particular foods to receive medicinal treatment. Captive animals do not have this ability. We have removed them from the environment, which they need to cope with these parasitic infestations.

To put it another way, there is a reason need we vaccinate captive animals, including ourselves, to protect against common ailments and disease, while wild animals live just fine(for the most part) with exposure to these same things.

I don't feel that it is very responsible of you to make a post like this.

 

[gone fishin]

while it is true that all organisms evolve and adapt to survive I still have not read anything or an alternative to current treatment. The current practices may not be perfect but they are the choices that we have right now. I am happy to beat the so called 95.5% of the ich "strains". I still find it hard to believe their is a group of ich that can lay dormant in a fallow tank then spring back to life when the livestock is introduced again. I believe this would be huge news throughout the hobby. Also, if their was a group of ich that became resistant to copper or any other chemical treatment I believe that would be huge news. Can you site any scientific studies or data directly related to ich that proves the "strains exist or is this just your theory. I would like to read the studies and I am sure alot of otheres would too.

 

[jamesbaur13]

James, I understand questioning long standing beliefs in order to progress in this hobby. That's how this hobby has gotten to where it is today, people pushing the envelope. The problem is you are challenging things that are thoroughly documented by biologists, millions of dollars of research by marine aquaculture facilities, and decades of anecdotal evidence from hobbyists. Marine ich is very lethal in closed systems, there is no scientific doubt to this.

Since you like analogies, here is one for you. Fleas, ticks, lice, and mites are all very common exo-parasites for all wild mammals. Anyone who has skinned a deer can tell you this. These parasites pose very little danger to these animals in the wild. Yet take these very same parasites and introduce them to your healthy family dog. Without treatment, your dog could very well die from secondary infections or anemia. At the very least, without treatment, your dogs hair will thin and and "hot spots" will develop from severe irritation.

Why is there this difference between the wild and captivity? Wild animals live in complex ecosystems that they have evolved to utilize for survival. When a home territory has become overwhelmed with parasites, the wild animals can leave the area. The wild animals can take mud baths to suffocate parasites or attract "cleaner" species to eat their parasites. In some cases, they may even eat particular foods to receive medicinal treatment. Captive animals do not have this ability. We have removed them from the environment, which they need to cope with these parasitic infestations.

To put it another way, there is a reason need we vaccinate captive animals, including ourselves, to protect against common ailments and disease, while wild animals live just fine(for the most part) with exposure to these same things.

I don't feel that it is very responsible of you to make a post like this.

Fish have been around for approx 440 million years, protozoans longer than that. I realize we are dealing with the confined space of an aquarium. However the ocean is also a confined space... it seems limitless, but in reality it is not. Given the exponential reproductive rate of the protozoan even in the seemingly limitless ocean over the course of 440 million years the oceans would be over run with it to a point where no fish could live.

 

[dzfish17]

Fish have been around for approx 440 million years, protozoans longer than that. I realize we are dealing with the confined space of an aquarium. However the ocean is also a confined space... it seems limitless, but in reality it is not. Given the exponential reproductive rate of the protozoan even in the seemingly limitless ocean over the course of 440 million years the oceans would be over run with it to a point where no fish could live.

Can you say troll? I was going to offer my experience on the subject but its obvious that at this point you are not listening to anything sound. Maybe someday, (after you grow up a little) you'll realize that you dont have all the answers. Good luck sport.

 

[jamesbaur13]

Can you say troll? I was going to offer my experience on the subject but its obvious that at this point you are not listening to anything sound. Maybe someday, (after you grow up a little) you'll realize that you dont have all the answers. Good luck sport.

I know I don't have all the answers, neither does anyone else.

 

[Maivortex]

It was obvious that this was troll after reading the subject. Im surprised that veterans of the forum gave this thread any attention.

 

[billsreef]

I realize we are dealing with the confined space of an aquarium. However the ocean is also a confined space... it seems limitless, but in reality it is not. Given the exponential reproductive rate of the protozoan even in the seemingly limitless ocean over the course of 440 million years the oceans would be over run with it to a point where no fish could live.

That's like comparing your bathroom to the African Savannah and claiming the Lion in the bathroom shouldn't kill all the Zebras in your bathroom, because they haven't killed all the Zebras in the Savannah.