Ich always present, truth or not

[trueperc]

Hello all,

I know the topic of ich has been in many threads, as wells as threads about it being present always in a saltwater tank or not. I do also aggree and understand where people come from when they argue, it you go fishless for 6 weeks and QT every fish properly there is no way it can be present as its a parisite that feeds off a host and has a fix life cycle.

But...

Is it possible that ich can be present a live off the host and do its life cycle and not completely take over the host but live in co-existence to a degree. Maybe until stress hits.

Now for maybe proof, I have friend that is going threw a terrible time with his tank. I am going to quote what he wrote in another thread

"Disaster in my 180
Let me start off by saying I am an experienced aquarist, in the hobby well over thirty years, reefing for nine. I am a victim of my own success as I never get sick fish...ever. I did lose a lot of fish back in 2002 when we had the BIG power blackout but that was due to lack of circulation/oxygenation. Since then I have not had an incident of any kind. The picture below is a couple of years old, but it does show a picture of the tank in better times.

This incident started with one of my heniochus scratching his eye and getting popeye from it. He was quite stressed out and stayed facing a back corner for days and didn't eat. After a week he started to recover and started swimming around more. I noticed a slight case of ich on him at the time but there was no way of catching him as I have over 250 pound of live rock and many large corals. It would have meant tearing everything down and I wanted to avoid that at the time. I also couldn't medicate the tank bacause of the corals and invertebrates, so I decided to leave him alone. The ich went away and all seemed well. Then about two weeks ago both my Heniochus and my three Ocellaris clowns showed signs of ich. It quickly spread to my Powder Blue, Purple and Mimic Tangs. I have since lost both heniochus, the Powder Blue and one Ocellaris Clown. The other aren't going to be too long before they follow. Through this my school of Green Chromis and my Orane Spot Goby are totally unaffected.

I am not writing this so people can get on here and berate me for not doing this, or not doing that. It's too late for that now. I am more concerned with how to proceed from here. I am wrestling with the idea that even tough I didn't want to I will now have to tear down the reef so I can get the school of Chromis and the Goby out so I can medicate them with copper in a seperate 25 gallon QT tank. I will rebuild the reef and wait until the Ich life cycle passes and they die off due to lack of a host. My water parameters are pristine and I use a six stage RO unit for every drop of water that goes in my tank. There has not been an addition to my tank in over two years so I didn't import the ich. "

Thread
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1482730


Just your thoughts on this would be great.

 

[greenbean36191]

Well there's a few simple answers here. Of course ich is not always present. It's caused by a known pathogen with a known lifecycle. Disrupt the lifecycle and remove the pathogen and it's no longer present.

Is it possible that ich can be present a live off the host and do its life cycle and not completely take over the host but live in co-existence to a degree. Maybe until stress hits.

It's more than just possible, this is known to be the case. It's exactly this situation that has given rise to the myth that the parasite is always present.

 

[trueperc]

So since it can be possible that ich is always present to some degree on a fish, then could it also be possible that the QT process is not always as effective as some people think, ie if you don't keep the tank and hypo salinity or treat with copper, then its possible all you are doing it providing a space for the fish and ich to settle its self in this co-existence and even though you've keep the fish in OT and after 4-6 weeks you seen nothing on the fish, you could be in fact still adding a fish that is carrying ich and with that knowlegde the situation that happened to my friend can happen.

 

[JustinReef]

I QT'd religiously and still my fish got ich when I moved. They had no signs of it for 9 months prior to the move and nothing new was added during the move. So obviously they had been living with it.

I did hypo and fallow tank for 6 months, did not work. Lost a few fish including my favorite Tried again for 8 months but again had ich a month after going back to the display. The ich was really bad now! It had only been minor at first. I wish I had never put them through the stress of QT

I now have just left them in the display to deal with it and after a few months it was gone. Every once in a while I see spots but as long as there is no stress from the fish, I am leaving them.

 

[abulgin]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13469944#post13469944 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by justinpsmith
I QT'd religiously and still my fish got ich when I moved. They had no signs of it for 9 months prior to the move and nothing new was added during the move. So obviously they had been living with it.

I did hypo and fallow tank for 6 months, did not work. Lost a few fish including my favorite Tried again for 8 months but again had ich a month after going back to the display. The ich was really bad now! It had only been minor at first. I wish I had never put them through the stress of QT

I now have just left them in the display to deal with it and after a few months it was gone. Every once in a while I see spots but as long as there is no stress from the fish, I am leaving them.

For how long did you quarantine your fish?

 

[JustinReef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13470157#post13470157 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by abulgin
For how long did you quarantine your fish?

Well 6 weeks 1.008 with my two refractometers and then 8 weeks the second time using my refractometers and my brothers. I know the salinity was low enough.

Fallow display tank.

 

[JustinReef]

Oh do you mean when they were new?

4 weeks. And I never saw ich in my tank for 9 months until the fish were stressed in a move. It was there though...

 

[hwynboy]

if you Qtd for 4 weeks and the lifecycle is known to be 6-8 weeks for it, I see the flaw in your logic already. You introduced it into your tank at the onset. =\

 

[abulgin]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13470230#post13470230 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hwynboy
if you Qtd for 4 weeks and the lifecycle is known to be 6-8 weeks for it, I see the flaw in your logic already. You introduced it into your tank at the onset. =\

I agree. 4 weeks is often sufficient, but not always. I think your 4 week QT was your problem.

 

[trueperc]

But maybe the justinpsmith is right, look at what happened to my friends tank, no new fish in about a years time and the bam. Myself I had a small powerblue in a 75 gallon for a 8 months, no signs what so every of ich, introduce him to my 210 which had no signs of ich and had not had a new fish in a year, once putting the power blue in, within a week, he was covered and then slowly allmy fish, thankfuly all recovered fine.
Every where I have read stateds that if you qt a fish and there is no sign of problem such as ich after 4 weeks you are good to go.

 

[Paul B]

Is it possible that ich can be present a live off the host and do its life cycle and not completely take over the host but live in co-existence to a degree. Maybe until stress hits.

It most definately can.
There has always been ich in my tank, I use NSW right from the sea and I have not quarantined in 25 years or so. Ich is in there as I will see it when a fish is near death from old age, carpet surfing, getting a big bite taken out of it etc.
It never affects anything else or becomes epidemic.
As Greenbean said, that is where the rumor came about about ich being present in all tanks.
It is not in all tanks but I think it is in most. It is probably on all wild fish.
If you set up a tank with ASW and treat fish with copper, then you will not have ich in your tank. That is impractical but that is the way we used to keep tanks when this hobby started or we were sure to lose everything to ich.
Now that we have reefs, the fish are healthier and ich is not the problem it used to be.

 

[lpsluver]

Strictly speaking, as a microbiologist, ich most certainly can be and likely is present in all wild caught fish (with a few exceptions like mandarins, etc.). It is an opportunistic pathogen that is likely kept at bay by a fish's healthy immune system.

To illustrate my point, and I've said this before, if you have an otherwise healthy and stable tank and have made no recent additions to you tank but your temp spikes for several hours (or some other change to the otherwise healthy tank conditions) and one or two of you fish get ick, where did it come from? The fish, their immunity dropped due to changes in environmental factors and gave the ick a foothold.

If you've been reading RC long enough you've read this type of scenario.

Same thing can happen to humans when their immune systems become compromised

 

[JustinReef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13470230#post13470230 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hwynboy
if you Qtd for 4 weeks and the lifecycle is known to be 6-8 weeks for it, I see the flaw in your logic already. You introduced it into your tank at the onset. =\

Right but the point is that it was not SEEN for four weeks. This is how most people judge whether a fish in QT has ich or not. During the lifecycle the parasite is usually seen after a few weeks on the fish. So after 4 weeks of not seeing ich, I thought the fish was ich free. Fish that did show signs of ich were QT'd in hypo for 6 weeks.

My point is that since ich can be in the gills and not seen, to make sure you have an ich free tank you would have to treat ALL new fish for ich before they go into the tank. You would also have to QT LR, corals, macro algae, inverts, ect. for 2-4 weeks (no host) or so to make sure any ich on them is dead.

I don't think there are many ich free tanks out there. I think there are just healthy, happy fish that keep the ich minimal and never seen.

Personally I am not going to treat all new fish for ich and put them through a bunch of stress for months and months as soon as I get them. I now QT for a few weeks and if no signs of ich show up then they are either strong enough to fight it off or do not have it. There is ich in my tank and I know that. So for me, QTing is about making sure they are strong fish but not necessarily ich free.

Im not saying its right for everyone but its working for me much better than my old methods.

BTW, I was not asking if you could find a flaw in my "logic"...I have a fiance that takes care of that. I was saying I know there was ich all along and I know why

 

[JustinReef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13470810#post13470810 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by lpsluver
Strictly speaking, as a microbiologist, ich most certainly can be and likely is present in all wild caught fish (with a few exceptions like mandarins, etc.). It is an opportunistic pathogen that is likely kept at bay by a fish's healthy immune system.

To illustrate my point, and I've said this before, if you have an otherwise healthy and stable tank and have made no recent additions to you tank but your temp spikes for several hours (or some other change to the otherwise healthy tank conditions) and one or two of you fish get ick, where did it come from? The fish, their immunity dropped due to changes in environmental factors and gave the ick a foothold.

If you've been reading RC long enough you've read this type of scenario.

Same thing can happen to humans when their immune systems become compromised

I agree. So really to have an ich free tank you would have to treat ALL new fish for ich right away and not just observe them for signs that you may not see. Or get really lucky

 

[ReefEnabler]

cant wait for the day when we can purchase a nano-virus to go after all the ich

just cuz you dont see it on a fish doesn't mean its not there....


ok now question....

last week I had a scare where I thought my Midas Blenny had Ich....He had some tiny white flakes on his side, maybe 3-4 specks. He had some tiny white flakes on his side, maybe 3-4 specks... I tried to catch him to no avail..... so I had to leave him in the tank.

Then the next day I saw the specks had moved to the other side of the fish and there were less, then 10 minutes later almost none.... then a few on a totally different part of the fish.....

I was thinking maybe it was not ich that I saw (never heard of it moving around that much), but rather a bit of detritus that the Midas got stuck on itself while burrowing in his hiding place???

 

[hwynboy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13471226#post13471226 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by justinpsmith
Right but the point is that it was not SEEN for four weeks. This is how most people judge whether a fish in QT has ich or not. During the lifecycle the parasite is usually seen after a few weeks on the fish. So after 4 weeks of not seeing ich, I thought the fish was ich free. Fish that did show signs of ich were QT'd in hypo for 6 weeks.


My point is that since ich can be in the gills and not seen, to make sure you have an ich free tank you would have to treat ALL new fish for ich before they go into the tank. You would also have to QT LR, corals, macro algae, inverts, ect. for 2-4 weeks (no host) or so to make sure any ich on them is dead.

I don't think there are many ich free tanks out there. I think there are just healthy, happy fish that keep the ich minimal and never seen.


Personally I am not going to treat all new fish for ich and put them through a bunch of stress for months and months as soon as I get them. I now QT for a few weeks and if no signs of ich show up then they are either strong enough to fight it off or do not have it. There is ich in my tank and I know that. So for me, QTing is about making sure they are strong fish but not necessarily ich free.

Im not saying its right for everyone but its working for me much better than my old methods.

BTW, I was not asking if you could find a flaw in my "logic"...I have a fiance that takes care of that. I was saying I know there was ich all along and I know why

As you stated in your post, ich does not need to be SEEN for it to be alive and living on your fish. If you QT for 8 weeks w/ hyposalinity and do it religiously to ALL your fish then ICH can be avoided in your tank. 4 weeks, no signs does not mean there is no ich.

To me having a tank without ICH isn't just a possiblity it's a reality if you want to go through the extra effort to provide your fish a safe place to live.

 

[hwynboy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13471449#post13471449 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RyanBrucks

ok now question....

last week I had a scare where I thought my Midas Blenny had Ich....He had some tiny white flakes on his side, maybe 3-4 specks. He had some tiny white flakes on his side, maybe 3-4 specks... I tried to catch him to no avail..... so I had to leave him in the tank.

Then the next day I saw the specks had moved to the other side of the fish and there were less, then 10 minutes later almost none.... then a few on a totally different part of the fish.....

I was thinking maybe it was not ich that I saw (never heard of it moving around that much), but rather a bit of detritus that the Midas got stuck on itself while burrowing in his hiding place???

When I first started keeping reef fish I thought the same thing on a couple of occasions. IME that is not detritus, or sand, or anything else you may think it is. IME it has been ICH. I have seen it in my tanks a couple of times before I learned how to deal with it, and a couple of buddies tanks as well.

 

[JustinReef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13471651#post13471651 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hwynboy
As you stated in your post, ich does not need to be SEEN for it to be alive and living on your fish. If you QT for 8 weeks w/ hyposalinity and do it religiously to ALL your fish then ICH can be avoided in your tank. 4 weeks, no signs does not mean there is no ich.

To me having a tank without ICH isn't just a possiblity it's a reality if you want to go through the extra effort to provide your fish a safe place to live.

Ok...once again, I never claimed that there should not have been ich because I QT'd for 4 weeks. Your just repeating exactly what I said.

So have you QT'd all inverts, corals, LR, ect and treated every fish for ich before they went into your display tank? Not just kept an eye on the fish but actually put them through hypo (which I do not believe kills all strains of ich) or copper. Unless you have done this, you can have ich in your tank. Im just curious about your process because this is way too much work for me when I feel I can give them a perfectly safe home without it

I think you are missing the point though. No one is encouraging not to QT. I am just saying that unless you treat all new fish and not just observe them, them like many of us do, it can get in. I still Qt fish but I am not willing to put them through copper or hypo if they appear healthy during the QT period.

 

[black_majik]

Anyone overlooked factor is any addition to the tank even a coral frag, piece of LR or even a hermit crab can carry on ich cyst if it was previously living in an infected tank. It moves to your tank the cyst's open up and wa-la you have yourself an outbreak.

 

[JustinReef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13471774#post13471774 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by black_majik
Anyone overlooked factor is any addition to the tank even a coral frag, piece of LR or even a hermit crab can carry on ich cyst if it was previously living in an infected tank. It moves to your tank the cyst's open up and wa-la you have yourself an outbreak.

Yes this is why my point was that although it is possible to have an ich free tank, for most of us its not probable. IMO its a matter of keeping the ich to a minimum which as stated above can co-exist with your livestock and generally is never seen.

This is what was happening in my last tank until the fish got stressed and the ich attacked.