Ich for less than 12 hours?

[CruxOp]

Hi Everyone

Had a very weird occurrence. I have a 120 gal mixed reef tank. I went through proper QT procedures for a new addition (powder blue tang, also dose with cupramine and prazi). I introduced him to the tank and for a week he was fine. Then 2 days ago I noticed he was getting bullied by a clown - yesterday morning he was fine. Yesterday night I checked and he appeared to have ich! White spots on a few different places. I woke up this morning to start tearing down the tank, and he looks PERFECTLY fine - zero ich spots, he's never acted weirdly (eating fine, etc. etc.)

I'm stumped - I thought I eradicated ich from my tank (had a breakout about half a year ago - let tank go fallow and hypo-ed all the fish. Is it possible that it was something else? Any help / advice / thoughts would be appreciated! I want to be sure if something's wrong I react quickly but also don't want to tear things apart / stress fish more if not necessary.

 

[Nina51]

when you say "proper" qt procedure, can you elaborate? how long was he in qt?

how many days did you go fallow? there is some evidence that there are strains of ich that are resistant to hypo.

IF it is another ich outbreak, you will have to remove all fish and treat/do ttm and your tank will have to be left fallow for 72 days.

 

[CruxOp]

Thanks for the fast response.

Back in the summer when the tank got ich, i left the tank fallow for 45 days

QT procedure for PBT and cardinal was 25 days. Prazi-pro on day 3 and 4, cupramine on day 10-25. All fish looked perfect after QT period. No other fish in the tank is showing any signs of ich - zero spots on anything else when the pbt had dots, and zero spots on any of the fish in the tank as-of today.

Tank residents are: Randalls goby, powder blue tang, clownfish, cardinalfish

 

[biomek]

Thanks for the fast response.

Back in the summer when the tank got ich, i left the tank fallow for 45 days

if it was in fact ich, generally 72 days fallow is necessary to eradicate the parasite through all stages. While you might not have seen ich on the fish after the QT process, it's highly probably that your DT is still infected with it and more so, the fish that have been placed back in the DT as well.

 

[jjk_reef00]

I also do 3-4 weeks cupramine.
It is possible the spots were just stress marks an not ich, my Naso gets larger spots when stressed. I've never had a PBT so other can chime in.

 

[ThRoewer]

if it was in fact ich, generally 72 days fallow is necessary to eradicate the parasite through all stages. While you might not have seen ich on the fish after the QT process, it's highly probably that your DT is still infected with it and more so, the fish that have been placed back in the DT as well.

72 days (actually rather 73 because there are still those pesky 24h the theront has to find a new host) are required to be absolutely sure that Ich is gone. But there is no evidence that Ich will in all cases stay encysted for that long in a reef aquarium.

To recap the Cryptocaryon life cycle:
3 to 7 days feeding on the fish (trophont)
2-8h, ~1 day max to encyst (protomont)
3 - 28 days, max 72 days dividing/resting (tomont)
1 day max to find a new host (theront)

So the shortest cycle time would be 6 days and the longest 37 days with a possible extreme of 81 days. The statistical likelihood that tomont actually last 72 days is probably quite low.

Also if the fish had white spots only for a few hours it was likely not ich but rather some "dust" or air bubbles that suck to the fish's skin. My manderins are always covert with spots that at close examination are just particles of debris sticking to their slime coat. They just like playing in the mud.

I would wait until I'm sure that it is Ich before I start tearing up my tank and put my fish through some (possibly) unnecessary treatment. Ich is well manageable and rater slow moving so there is no reason to panic.

Now if it was Velvet, Brook, Uronema or the like I would be in full panic mode.

 

[snorvich]

72 days (actually rather 73 because there are still those pesky 24h the theront has to find a new host) are required to be absolutely sure that Ich is gone. But there is no evidence that Ich will in all cases stay encysted for that long in a reef aquarium.

To recap the Cryptocaryon life cycle:
3 to 7 days feeding on the fish (trophont)
2-8h, ~1 day max to encyst (protomont)
3 - 28 days, max 72 days dividing/resting (tomont)
1 day max to find a new host (theront)

So the shortest cycle time would be 6 days and the longest 37 days with a possible extreme of 81 days. The statistical likelihood that tomont actually last 72 days is probably quite low.

Yes, all that information is presented in the stickies. However, to insure the absence of ich, the longer time is preferred.

Also if the fish had white spots only for a few hours it was likely not ich but rather some "dust" or air bubbles that suck to the fish's skin. My manderins are always covert with spots that at close examination are just particles of debris sticking to their slime coat. They just like playing in the mud.

could be. Mandarins, of course, have a slime coat that tends to collect debris. Also, mandarins, are ich resistant, although not ich immune.

I would wait until I'm sure that it is Ich before I start tearing up my tank and put my fish through some (possibly) unnecessary treatment. Ich is well manageable and rater slow moving so there is no reason to panic.

I agree about making sure it is ich before tearing down a tank, but I disagree that ich is "manageable".

Now if it was Velvet, Brook, Uronema or the like I would be in full panic mode.

For sure.

 

[CruxOp]

Thanks for the updates. I'm continuing to monitor him very closely - he is still eating aggressively, swimming around the tank normally - for all intents and purposes appears to now be a healthy fish.

Interesting point about it potentially being sand in the slime coat - I do have pretty fine sand so it would be about the same size.

For the nastier diseases (Velvet, Brook, Uronema, etc.) I would think I would have observed more rapid progression, no? Also he was in quarantine with the cardinal and the cardinal has not shown any signs of any issues. Wouldn't something that bad have wiped them out during QT?

 

[snorvich]

For the nastier diseases (Velvet, Brook, Uronema, etc.) I would think I would have observed more rapid progression, no? Also he was in quarantine with the cardinal and the cardinal has not shown any signs of any issues. Wouldn't something that bad have wiped them out during QT?

One of the "bad ones" should exhibit behavioral or visible symptom in the three to four week time frame (assuming they are coming from a source running copper) and sooner if the source is not running copper.

 

[ThRoewer]

Steve, With manageable I meant that it is not killing fish fast and that is easily cured by a variety of treatments. You usually have at least a week to get all fish out and into treatment.

I usually look at the clear parts of the fins and see if they show some localized cloudiness. The Ich parasite may have left the fish but the damage it has done remains much longer visible.

The bad ones usually show in the behavior of the fish quite a while before they become visible on the skin. That is one reason why I take my time to observe a fish I plan to buy and do not buy reef fish via mail order.

 

[mpierce]

I belong to the group that thinks ich is managable in the tank environment. Soak your food in selcon and some garlic, as long as the fish are eating well they should fight off the parasites. It works for me and that is all I really care about. I may not be the ultimate resource but I have had a reef tank for 7 years and managed some bad ich outbreaks along the way without removing a thing from the tank. UV doesn't hurt either. Flame away.

 

[TitanCi]

Ich for less than 12 hours?

You know, I've thought about the life cycle and when it's in its free swimming state, what the chances of actually attaching to a fish's exterior is. May be slimmer since they're moving, fast water pulses from pumps and such, so it makes it less attachable per se. But then once I think about the fish breathing and getting into the gills, then i worry and think of all the bad that could happen.

I've "managed" ich before, no doubt, but when you become more conscientious and thoughtful/aware sometimes it's best to do what we all know we should do.

I've seen people keep it at bay for years, but new intros always cause a problem. It seems to rear its ugly head then.

 

[Deinonych]

I belong to the group that thinks ich is managable in the tank environment. Soak your food in selcon and some garlic, as long as the fish are eating well they should fight off the parasites. It works for me and that is all I really care about. I may not be the ultimate resource but I have had a reef tank for 7 years and managed some bad ich outbreaks along the way without removing a thing from the tank. UV doesn't hurt either. Flame away.

Glad it works for you, but this is not a point of view that is advocated here.

 

[ThRoewer]

The real problem of lingering Ich in a tank is the time you are away and unable to take action. Most losses I had (not necessarily Ich related) were when I was away for a longer period of time and had my mother care for my fish.

By Murphy's Law things go bad at the most inconvenient times.
And leaving your tank and fish unattended (or cared for by someone who isn't an expert of your system) for a couple of weeks is usually the time things go sideways or really bad because the early warnings are not recognized and therefore no corrective action taken.
That's why you want to eliminate every possible point of failure when you can.

 

[snorvich]

I belong to the group that thinks ich is managable in the tank environment. Soak your food in selcon and some garlic, as long as the fish are eating well they should fight off the parasites. It works for me and that is all I really care about. I may not be the ultimate resource but I have had a reef tank for 7 years and managed some bad ich outbreaks along the way without removing a thing from the tank. UV doesn't hurt either. Flame away.

I don't flame. Your fish, your choice. As a member of staff here, I always advocate for the demonstrated sure course of action.

 

[snorvich]

Steve, With manageable I meant that it is not killing fish fast and that is easily cured by a variety of treatments. You usually have at least a week to get all fish out and into treatment.

I usually look at the clear parts of the fins and see if they show some localized cloudiness. The Ich parasite may have left the fish but the damage it has done remains much longer visible.

The bad ones usually show in the behavior of the fish quite a while before they become visible on the skin. That is one reason why I take my time to observe a fish I plan to buy and do not buy reef fish via mail order.

I agree. Cryptocaryon irritans is a parasite that eventually overwhelms rather than quickly kills. You seem knowledgeable, glad you are contributing to this forum (and to the clownfish forum).

 

[Paul B]

Glad it works for you, but this is not a point of view that is advocated here.

One reason I stay away from ich threads. Good luck what ever you do.

 

[ThRoewer]

... You seem knowledgeable, glad you are contributing to this forum (and to the clownfish forum).

I've been having saltwater since 1978 and started breeding clownfish in 1982 when I was still in school. Back then things where much harder that now. I was mostly learning things from the few books that were out there and by making mistakes - no internet back then.
And there was not local store carrying saltwater - the closest was in Bremen, a 2h drive away. So I could only go when my parents decided to go on shopping trip.

Though back when I started I killed most of my fish in quarantine. So at some point I just said "screw it" and put a new fish - an Amphiprion chrysogaster - in my display tank and he was the first to survive.

Since then I relied more on selecting only healthy fish and very rarely had to treat them. I usually spent a whole Saturday at the fish store observing fish I was interested in and looking for any signs of infection, scratching, how they hold their fins or other strange behavior. I learned a lot this way - not only how to pick healthy fish. I also found out soon that the healthiest fish were usually the ones that came from an experienced importer and spent the least time at the store.

In the 90s I was then able to buy directly at the largest importer for saltwater fish in Europe. That was a real eye-opener - first on how quarantine is done and what kind of strange diseases are out there and secondly - by being able to see hundreds of the same species side by side - that there are differences between males and females of many species you wouldn't suspect.
Since those days I keep all my fish in pairs and only keep fish that are suitable for each other and my tank. Happy fish are usually healthy fish while stressed out fish will come down with some disease sooner or later.

I think the biggest mistake many make is to buy a fish without studying them first (in theory and the actual specimen) and without considering if it is really suitable for their tank and their other fish. Many posts here kind of show that.

 

[Paul B]

ThRoewer. Very nice post.

 

[Deinonych]

throewer. Very nice post.

+1