Ich must have an enemy.

[jmm]

How else can you explain the disappearance without re-occurence in tanks that have not been lain fallow of fish.

Immunity? Some people on here have claimed they don't have instances of ich for long periods of time after an outbreak. I personally have had a 14-year absence (1980 through 1994) in a tank that was completely wiped out in 1979 by ich. And that was the period when no one quarantined their new arrivals. Immunity doesn't explain why new fish don't get it in those instances.

Most scientific studies of ich have been done in commercial fisheries. Most hobbyist studies are anecdotal. They hardly compare. I hope I'm not making the same mistake here.

I don't know of any animal or plant that doesn't have some natural enemy. Could it be corals filtering the water? Could it be the fauna in the sand bed or rocks? Are there bacteria or other protozoa that consume it.

I'm not trying to make anyone angry here but a high post count really doesn't make someone an undisputed expert on this. Most posters on here are only echoing what they read in another post. Experience doesn't make an expert either. I've had salt water tanks since 1972. Lots of them. But the experience I gained back in those days didn't have the equipment we use today. It didn't have the animals available we have today.

In those days we used undergravel filters powered by air pumps. Later we used powerheads to pump through the same undergravel filters. Later, we used bioballs in a sump with the strongest return pump we could find or afford. We used to periodically bleach our coral and we welcomed algae as a sign of a healthy tank. Lights weren't strong enough and live coral was a fish food only occasionally available to entice butterflies to eat.

How could that experience apply to todays high tech reef tanks run with RODI water, protein skimmers and refugiums?

So I stand by my statement: Something natural is taking care of ich in older tanks. Like every other living creature it has to have an enemy.

Flame suit on.

 

[Dmorty217]

Absolutely ich has a natural predator but not sure anyone can tell you what that is. Every hobbiest is different as far as setup and habits go, so I'm not sure you could find a common denominator in the tanks you're referring to. I know some who have the same experiences. Fish are like people in that no two are the same, much like people. You may get the flu, but I may not or vice versa. Same with fish. The real issue becomes if you live with it in a system then buying a 300$+ fish becomes a big gamble or if you have a tank full of 20$ fish that adds up and time is tough to measure with $$. Also these tanks you're referring to, yours included what did you add that didn't then show ich? Achilles tang or powder blue that are known "ich magnets"? Not sure why you brought up post counts? Randy Holmes Farley has 90K posts and is a expert. Apparently Steve said something to offend you...So are you suggesting to others not to worry about ich?

 

[jmm]

Not worrying about post counts so much as everybody taking someone else's advice and dispensing it as their own.

In my long lasting run without ich, early on I had a Hippo, Yellow and Sailfin. These fish lasted the 14 years before I sold the tank to a fish store. About 5 or 6 years in I added a Powder Blue. A year or two later I added a Sohal and a Purple. The Powder Blue immediately killed the Purple who was twice his size. The Sohal (a large, $500 fish) was peaceful. All of these fish, along with several Angels and Triggers, lasted until I sold the tank. I knew who bought the Powder Blue and followed him for 5 years before I moved to another city.

The tank was 500 gallons and was run by a dairy milking machine air compressor located in the attic over my garage pumping through an under gravel filter.

My habits and tank maintenance would be frowned upon today. Even by me.

 

[jmm]

Everybody should worry about ich. It's a killer. Quarantine everything. But I don't buy the story that once you've experienced it, it is always in that tank until it lays fallow for x number of days. Everybody is giving a different day count for this, by the way. If two or three fish survive the outbreak and never show symptoms again, I don't believe its in there hiding somewhere. If it can't use those fish to complete its cycle, it is the same as not finding ANY fish to complete the cycle.

You can make this hobby so hard that no one will succeed.

Ich transfer between tanks through the air? Give me a break. It's like wearing 3 condoms because two might break. That's someone's explanation to avoid criticism for dipping the same net or cleaning tools between an affected and unaffected tank.

 

[laga77]

I started in the late eighties but the technologies were the same as when you started. I don`t think ICH has an enemy but it definitely has an ally, and that is stress. You had a 500G tank which is a huge advantage. It provided space and stability. Any changes in water quality happen slowly just because of the volume. The fish were able to get away from each other instead of always being next to each other. It is my opinion that fish get sick mainly because they are either over crowded, poorly fed, or have bad environments. All lead to them being stressed. So it is a form of immunity to a point. When I first got back into the hobby after a long hiatus, my tank had an outbreak of either ich or velvet and I loss a couple of fish. That was almost three years ago. Since then I learned the importance of a good diet, consisting of fresh, frozen, and live foods. This, along with the proper husbandry skills of maintaining the proper populations and compatibility of species, with of course good water quality can keep the stress levels to a minimum.

 

[jmm]

I started in the late eighties but the technologies were the same as when you started. I don`t think ICH has an enemy but it definitely has an ally, and that is stress. You had a 500G tank which is a huge advantage. It provided space and stability. Any changes in water quality happen slowly just because of the volume. The fish were able to get away from each other instead of always being next to each other. It is my opinion that fish get sick mainly because they are either over crowded, poorly fed, or have bad environments. All lead to them being stressed. So it is a form of immunity to a point. When I first got back into the hobby after a long hiatus, my tank had an outbreak of either ich or velvet and I loss a couple of fish. That was almost three years ago. Since then I learned the importance of a good diet, consisting of fresh, frozen, and live foods. This, along with the proper husbandry skills of maintaining the proper populations and compatibility of species, with of course good water quality can keep the stress levels to a minimum.

When you lost those couple of fish did you remove all the others and let the tank sit without fish for two or three months?

Have you had a recurrence?

I understand immunity to bacteria or virus, something that gets in your blood and gets attacked by anti bodies you developed from the last infection. But parasites that are external? To me, it looks like something else in the tank is suppressing or has wiped out those parasites.

 

[laga77]

No I did not. I lost 4 out of 6 fish in a 50G reef. They were all small specimens. A Watchman Goby and Longnose Hawkfish survived. After reading what Paul B has posted about live foods I ditched the flakes and pellets and went to a diet consisting of fresh clams, oysters, shrimp, squid, and live black worms and white worms. I built up my population for about a year and then moved some of my fish into a 120G reef. That tank has been up for over a year now and still have the 50G. Between the 2 DT`s and the QT I have 28 fish. Some of them are getting so big I just bought another 120G to set up as a FOWLR. I QT for 2-3 weeks and if they are clear and eating live food they go into the DT. I have used TTM one time when a flame angel broke out with ICH badly overnight, and he is fine now. That was 11 months ago. In the last 18 months, the only fish I have lost have been the two that jumped and a couple of small Cardinals and Anthias that just disappeared in the 120G.

 

[jmm]

Sounds like my experience. Ich took some, ignored some, and some with ich recovered. After a few weeks, I started restocking. Then I upgraded the 90 to a 210, didn't reuse the sand, but did reuse the rock. Kept all the fish, all the coral, and all the invertebrates.

Everything survived and thrived. Haven't lost any fish and new arrivals all did/do well. Where's the ich? I think something ate it. Going into my third year now with that tank.

I have another tank that has something going on that I can't cure with SOME of the fish. All fish in that tank were quarantined but none were prophylactically treated. Maybe that tank, started sterile, hasn't matured enough to take care of its own problems.

 

[skp]

Sounds like my experience. Ich took some, ignored some, and some with ich recovered. After a few weeks, I started restocking. Then I upgraded the 90 to a 210, didn't reuse the sand, but did reuse the rock. Kept all the fish, all the coral, and all the invertebrates.

Everything survived and thrived. Haven't lost any fish and new arrivals all did/do well. Where's the ich? I think something ate it. Going into my third year now with that tank.

I have another tank that has something going on that I can't cure with SOME of the fish. All fish in that tank were quarantined but none were prophylactically treated. Maybe that tank, started sterile, hasn't matured enough to take care of its own problems.

If you take an Achilles tang, prophylactically treat it to make sure it doesn't have Ich and put it into your tank and it doesn't get Ich then I think you can prove your theory that something killed off the Ich in your tank.

I have observations and 'what ifs':

1. I've seen fish that didn't show any signs of Ich start to show the white spots after 4 days of being introduced into a tank with copper (and other fish with Ich). What does this mean? The free swimming Theronts shouldn't have been able to survive in copper to attach to the fish. Which means that the fish already had Ich on it before it went into the tank and it was not showing it. Is the little white spot actually the Trophont or is it a mucous/white blood secreted by the fish from the Ich entering or exiting?

2. I've seen a fish (the only fish in the tank) lose all white spots, not show any signs whatsoever for 17 days and then start to show the white spots again. Nothing was added or changed.

From these two observations, I would guess that either:
a. Ich has a stage where it can lay dormant inside the body of a fish and it only comes out under certain conditions possibly related to stress (like shingles with humans) OR
b. The Tomont stage of the life cycle is not a time sensitive stage but the release is triggered by something in the environment. Maybe the cell division in the cyst also needs something to fuel it? Something that is missing from mature tanks?

I read a lot on Ich, from hobbyist observations and people who claim they were paid to study it in a controlled environment. Most of what I read reconciled. Have you read the one about Ich dying off if a new strain is not introduced to the tank for 10-11 months? The cause of this observation is unknown. Some say genetic inbreeding may be the cause. Does Ich reproduce sexually? Maybe this is the reason your tank is Ich free?

 

[laga77]

I don`t know where it is either. All I know is when I switched diets my fish no longer got sick. Will be three years in Jan. Is it more work and money? Yes, but it is worth it. The best comparison I can give is to salmon farming. They put a lot of fish in a confined space, and feed them the same processed pellet food every day. Do the fish live and grow? Yes, but they have to pump antibiotics into them to do it because their immune systems are compromised.

 

[laga77]

Maybe this is the reason your tank is Ich free?

I like your comparison to shingles. I think there is a lot of similarities. My tank may not be free from Ich, but my fish are Ich free.

 

[Spar]

My view is that proper husbandry of fish in a non-treated environment is misunderstood and why we get such a varying response from hobbyists in whether something has worked in the battle of Ich or not. I had Ich with my old 180g but never lost a fish to it. I wouldn't even ever see the Ich until I added a new fish causing a stress flare-up for a short period of time; even with an Achiles Tang. Otherwise though, things went on just fine.

The problem that happens from stories like this is that too many hobbyists believe that they too have exceptional husbandry skills, when in fact they suck at it without knowing. They weigh the options based on other hobbyist stories as to whether to QT or not... story A says "I didn't not QT and everything is fine" while story B says "I QT'ed and everything is fine"... the vast majority are going to take the easy way out and say they will take story A's advice because "my husbandry skills are just as good... if not better". And then most/everything dies and they are left scratching their head.

It is for this reason that I always recommend doing everything reasonably possible to treat your fish and non-fish accordingly, and then ALSO ensure you are actually following through with good husbandry skills, and everything will be just fine whether Ich sneaks in or not. I don't really care if my tank ends up getting Ich, I would continue treating and QT'ing new fish anyway. That makes me that much more comfortable with going off ambiguous information such as the "72 day fallow period", because to me it is just giving me a much better comfort that Ich is gone... not relying on it as a guarantee.

Something that Dmorty is likely hinting at as well is that that there seem to be a lot of posts recently that are basically paraphrasing as "we can't prove the 72-day fallow rule, so there is no point in treating at all". I just shake my head at these because it is just giving even more ammunition to the Story A takers.

 

[Dmorty217]

My view is that proper husbandry of fish in a non-treated environment is misunderstood and why we get such a varying response from hobbyists in whether something has worked in the battle of Ich or not. I had Ich with my old 180g but never lost a fish to it. I wouldn't even ever see the Ich until I added a new fish causing a stress flare-up for a short period of time; even with an Achiles Tang. Otherwise though, things went on just fine.

The problem that happens from stories like this is that too many hobbyists believe that they too have exceptional husbandry skills, when in fact they suck at it without knowing. They weigh the options based on other hobbyist stories as to whether to QT or not... story A says "I didn't not QT and everything is fine" while story B says "I QT'ed and everything is fine"... the vast majority are going to take the easy way out and say they will take story A's advice because "my husbandry skills are just as good... if not better". And then most/everything dies and they are left scratching their head.

It is for this reason that I always recommend doing everything reasonably possible to treat your fish and non-fish accordingly, and then ALSO ensure you are actually following through with good husbandry skills, and everything will be just fine whether Ich sneaks in or not. I don't really care if my tank ends up getting Ich, I would continue treating and QT'ing new fish anyway. That makes me that much more comfortable with going off ambiguous information such as the "72 day fallow period", because to me it is just giving me a much better comfort that Ich is gone... not relying on it as a guarantee.

Something that Dmorty is likely hinting at as well is that that there seem to be a lot of posts recently that are basically paraphrasing as "we can't prove the 72-day fallow rule, so there is no point in treating at all". I just shake my head at these because it is just giving even more ammunition to the Story A takers.

+1 if you have ich and choose to live with it then either A: you're are loaded with cash so you don't care how many fish you lose to get one to live. ( I know someone who has ich in his system and has purchased 10, yes 10 juv emperors because they all keep dying surprise surprise. Or B: you are buying fish and getting lucky. I would challenge someone who knowingly has ich in the system to get a Gem tang or Conspicuous angel and add it to the tank and let us know how it goes. Maybe some think you can't prove the 72 days fallow period but I can prove that you will lose fish without treating, especially since most on here have a tank 200g and smaller. Larger tanks are a different animal altogether and DT volume isn't always most important. Some have several hundred gallon DTs with entire systems over the 1000g mark. That guy can do things the guy with the 300g can't. Bottom line just because 1% have had success the 99% still won't

 

[snorvich]

+1 if you have ich and choose to live with it then either A: you're are loaded with cash so you don't care how many fish you lose to get one to live. ( I know someone who has ich in his system and has purchased 10, yes 10 juv emperors because they all keep dying surprise surprise. Or B: you are buying fish and getting lucky. I would challenge someone who knowingly has ich in the system to get a Gem tang or Conspicuous angel and add it to the tank and let us know how it goes. Maybe some think you can't prove the 72 days fallow period but I can prove that you will lose fish without treating, especially since most on here have a tank 200g and smaller. Larger tanks are a different animal altogether and DT volume isn't always most important. Some have several hundred gallon DTs with entire systems over the 1000g mark. That guy can do things the guy with the 300g can't. Bottom line just because 1% have had success the 99% still won't

Excellent post. Just as an FYI, all of "my" diseases stickies are summaries, abstractions, or edited copies of marine biology literature and have been reviewed by our resident marine biologist.

 

[jmm]

If the ich life cycle is correctly understood, and I have no doubt it is since it has been studied scientifically with commercial fish, then an interruption of that cycle, whether by removing all fish or simply by having fish that don't get it, then it could have been eliminated from the tank. The Achilles Tang that "picks it up" from a tank where it has been dormant for three years, in my opinion, came in with it in a less than observable state. When its resistance is lowered, or its protective slime coat is scraped, then the ich gets to it. That is especially suspected if the other fish don't get it.

Of course, I can't prove it because I don't have the equipment or the knowledge to do scientific experiments on this level, but just thinking logically, I don't buy the prevailing theories without a lot of skepticism.

I wish I knew everything to know about ich, but I don't, and I really don't think anyone else, even if they claim to, does either.

And Dmorty, I'm not mad at Steve, I've never even conversed with him. He seems to know more than anyone else here about this parasite. But just reading what he writes, doesn't make everyone that reads it an expert. His advice is good, but a lot of people are further along in their dealings with this disease than good advice will help. Nobody goes into this fully informed. There is definitely a learning curve and someone who starts their tank before they run into reefcentral can't turn back the clock. If some of their fish survive, you can't expect them to have all the quarantine tanks, treatment tanks, medicine and expertise to follow the advice that someone with year's of experience gives them. And yet, with luck of the draw, many of them go on with the hobby, sometimes for decades, and get better and more careful as they go.

 

[jmm]

There are hundreds of viewers on reefcentral all the time. Probably there are dozens of posters. And there are thousands of archives, some of them quite long and many of them contradictory. A long-time member only has to look at new posts to stay caught up, whereas a new member has much to sift through, and must glean the correct from the incorrect. Who do you believe, me or your lying eyes? That's a joke. But it is seriously confusing. Some posters are smarter than others, and more likely to be correct, but how do you know when you are panicking over a disease outbreak. Sure, you get plenty of advice, but it's not all the same.

Oops, I've just hijacked my own thread.

Well, I'll just say that every rule seems to have an exception.

 

[ca1ore]

Ich must have an enemy ...

Just about every living organism has something it eats, as well as something that eats it. The most obvious threat to ich is 'space' - that in the wide ocean most free swimming ich fail to find a host and perish. Harder to manage in our tanks. But I'd imagine that ich has something that eats it. I've wondered whether SPS polys would eat it? I'd think it too small, but who knows for sure.

I personally have had varying experiences with ich in my tanks. Sometimes it wipes the fish population (or would absent intervention); other times it does not. Beyond lay-speculation, I have no defendable explanation for this varied experience.

 

[jmm]

Ich must have an enemy ...

Just about every living organism has something it eats, as well as something that eats it. The most obvious threat to ich is 'space' - that in the wide ocean most free swimming ich fail to find a host and perish. Harder to manage in our tanks. But I'd imagine that ich has something that eats it. I've wondered whether SPS polys would eat it? I'd think it too small, but who knows for sure.

I personally have had varying experiences with ich in my tanks. Sometimes it wipes the fish population (or would absent intervention); other times it does not. Beyond lay-speculation, I have no defendable explanation for this varied experience.

That's what I think. I would even go so far as to say, each stage has something that eats it. Some tanks may have some of that.

 

[ca1ore]

+1 if you have ich and choose to live with it then either A: you're are loaded with cash so you don't care how many fish you lose to get one to live. ( I know someone who has ich in his system and has purchased 10, yes 10 juv emperors because they all keep dying surprise surprise. Or B: you are buying fish and getting lucky. I would challenge someone who knowingly has ich in the system to get a Gem tang or Conspicuous angel and add it to the tank and let us know how it goes.

I have ich in my system, am not 'A' and have added enough individuals to dismiss 'B' as statistically unlikely. Of the 25 fish that I have added to my asymptomatic tank, only two ever showed symptoms (Achilles tang and sailfin tang). Both are growing, and with the exception of few occasional spits in the Achilles, there has been no breakout in almost 2 years. Unfortunately, I am unable to provide a plausible explanation.

I wouldn't spend $3K on any fish, regardless of the state of my tank :lol:

 

[skp]

If the ich life cycle is correctly understood, and I
I wish I knew everything to know about ich, but I don't, and I really don't think anyone else, even if they claim to, does either.

Is it a known fact that Ich only host fish? I have this blue tunicate and I noticed that it would close up with each wave of Ich. I observed this with three waves of Ich. Now my tank has been fallow for almost a month but my tunicate has still closed up every 7-10 days for a few days twice now. I know this could have nothing to do with the Ich in my tank and it's life cycle but I don't do anything to this fishless tank except water changes and this closing up was in synch with the Ich before and still is now if the Ich was still somehow going through it's life cycle in my tank.