Ich treatment for anyone who wants their fish to live

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Argon thank you for the maturity. What do you want me to back with science? I will do it gladly. How simple would you like it. NOt insulting you simply do not know your background As far as the comparisons it is to simply be understood and to simplify. I fear I may have forgotten how sharp my tongue is so as far how I come across i can respect that. I suppose I should have worded better (Throughout all this) My comparison of chemo and copper well I have been spared by chemo and know its place I am not against copper either just harsh and a last resort in my book and I know as well what it does to organisms that are in the weight range of you and I. And that is in small doses. At last a discussion. again what would you like me to back I do not take it as a challenge simply the first request for backing I have read.
 
Profound wisdom I asked for your input not argument. If everything is a confrontation to you then please remove yourself from my presence. It makes you a waste of time on this post
 
for example i once used a copper treatment in my freshwater as a last resort. Every spring tubifex infested my tank due to changing water conditons and a lack of funds to remedy this with ro water. I went camping and the cichlid tank was on the brink of death when I returned (I hate tubifex if for no reason other than the smell ) I was stuck with the choice of transplanting a weakend livestock to a new environment. Which as should be common knowledge by now is not my preference which is all medical treatments are. No one has to do what the doc' says So I chose after some hurried studying a copper treatment. Only one fish was lost and I am leaving out details because who cares. Upon dissection my proffessor and I found harsh damage to the organs I chose to go light too. Now all my other fish survived until an "ICHTASTROPHE" And sorry to steal your ammo for the next assualt but they are apples and oranges (there I go comparing again) Fresh and saltwater "ICH"
 
So they all have their uses. Start light and work up had I not been assualted I would have stated that I have had to use all the methods prescribed and after all was said and done and a few were flushed I hit the books and found this regimen and like a fool chose to share it after trial and success. If it saves one fish it is worth it. Far to often in general people mistake opinions for fact. I will be happy to back up my findings with science I will still simplify it and after all is said and done it is still opinion backed by science.
 
PhillyD123,

I must admit, I am having a hard time reading your posts. If you want to be taken seriously about such a debatable topic, please learn how to punctuate your posts so that they are legible enough to discern what your real point is. My impression thus far is that you can't have it any other way but your own and you attack anyone else who differs from you. And referring to people you are discussing with as "bud" isn't very friendly either. If you change your tone perhaps you will be taken a bit more seriously.

Back to the topic... I agree with you on a a surface level I don't have scientific proof other than what has worked for me, however, I too am not a believer in using chemicals and other "unnatural" means to eliminate Crypto from my fish. My fish rarely show signs of it in my tank, however they do occasionally pick it up. I don't add fish regularly and have had the same fish for many years now. One in particular, my 13 year old A. Frenatus, gets a spot here and there about once or twice a year. I don't know for sure what the spots are for sure, but it looks like your typical run-of-the-mill Crypto. She shows no sign of stress, lays eggs likes she's been doing for a while now, and it goes away on it's own in a few weeks (another sign that it could be Crypto). It doesn't come back for another few months or years sometimes.

At the end of the day, everyone differs on their methods. It doesn't make their methods correct or not. I will stand by my method of providing a healthy enough environment to facilitate thriving animals.

Luis
 
If you are not caring for your tank I would reccomend from my point of view and findings that a lighter regimen would suit you well. Freshly crushed Garlic has the highest content though garlic oil did me and my friends fine. As much as it is preached allicin is far from flawless. It does work but the delivery is the problem. I have read of some placing it directly into the water which would make it highly weakened so I simply soaked my food for 5 to 10 minutes prior to feeding. In the catching fish world it is common knowledge garlic stimulates fishes appetites. By feeding garlic you are killing two birds with one stone. Because fish like other organisms (Barring a few) Lose their appetite when stressed or ill. And you are still administering the allicin. Keep in mind you are still losing a great bit and short of harpooning your fish with a syringe it is unavoidable. Something is always lost on it way into the blood stream. Allicin has many interesting and fascinating qualities which is why the medical field is so interested. It boosts the immune system (Some wives tales are true.) is reputed to have antibiotic properties and the debates between my proffesor and others got heated to the point where physical violence was imminent. So lets assume that it does because my father in law had 65% of the bacteria die next to 23% in his study this means garlic actually does three things Makes em hungry, Helps em fight it natuarally and then Is an antibiotic?It is also reputed to "Mask" the fish which blocks one of the life stages of "ICH" though the author of this one said it was the best he could explain it (Marine Bioligist) which is well rounded because "ICH" Brings friends or rather opens the door to other infections and diseases.
Next up no science but my own backing it I added more minerals after reading that this assisted. You can leave it out but as far as fighting things the more minerals and vitamins that can be used in the fight the better. (This is the medical proffesion speaking. feel free to ignore the Vitamins and minerals I can not back it up scientifically It was anothers thoughts that I agreed with.)
Next up Natural helpers. Cleaner Gobies and cleaner shrimp. And as gobie pointed out cleaner wrasses though I know nothing about them. Anyone know if the light trick works too? It sounds very feasible to help in the fight.

Simplifiying with less wind Garlic, Minerals? (Maybe) Natural helpers. Well rounded and if worse comes to worse step it up a notch with other more common regimens. Mine is low stress low work. NO water changes other than the norm. five more minutes of your time and such. Does it work it has for everyone I know that has tried it. will it for you hey difficult to say my tank has a completely different ecosystem than anyone elses and they are all differnet than the ocean. If you would like scientific names mumbo jumbo and backing I will gladly dig it up for you. I see no point this was pretty cut and dry.
 
Well all of the treatments have their place. Hypo, Copper, Garlic extracts, Fallow and Quarantine.

I reject notions that QT is a poor method. I believe in multiple fish tanks, it's not only essential but if done properly vital to the recovery of the fish. It not only transports any cysts that are on the fish to a new environment and preventing them from dropping off but allows a less stressful environment for the fish.

The key is doing it right. Everyone should be ready for a QT situation and a moments notice. Personally I always have pre-mixed water aerating and have a secondary biological filter ready and running on my main system to transfer over. Secondly, Salinity and Temp need to be matched. Otherwise you are taking a weak diseased fish and making it fight both the water conditions and the disease. Finally a proper environment for the fish is best, hiding places and an easy cleanable tank.

This prevents or greatly reduces the disease transmission to other fish and to keep the fish in a controlled area for proper observation without the vagaries of the main tank (hiding in rock and predators). It also allows for the use of harmful chemicals that would otherwise destroy/damage or hurt the main tank (Copper and Formalin).

I agree that immediately treating copper isn't the best treatment. However it's been proven effective and safe if done properly with real test kits.

Formalin can also be used for Ich but again is a carcinogen and needs to be used with utmost care.

Finally, Hypo salinity and Garlic are in my own opinion the best methods for treatment and I believe from the information I have read to be the easiest on fish if given in a QT. Garlic from my own observations does act as an appetite increaser, and the Hypo-Salinity interrupts the life cycle of the cyst while simultaneous reducing the osmotic pressure on the fish giving him more energy to combat the cyst naturally. Combined with a temp of 80-82 to increase the life cycle it should break the cycle effectively in the QT allowing the fish to recovery naturally.

However where I take issue with the above posts and my request for more information, is garlic used by itself has NOT been proven effective. The links I provided are two observations on this subject and have less then stellar results. However, there is something to be said for personal observation so I consider science on garlic still in progress.

Can you provide in any form articles done in some sort of scientific manner that shows Formalin, Copper, Quarantine Tanks and Hypo Salinity to be detrimental to Ich reduction if done properly? Almost all instance I have seen of the above methods failing were due to the fish either being to far gone for any treatment to affect them, or being done improperly.

Thanks
 
Philly,

I think you're still missing the point and it really doesn't help when you're trying to make a intelligent argument and your grammar is almost unreadable. I honestly didn't understand what you were trying to say in the last string of posts.
I also think that even though your ideals on pathogen treatment are noble in that you want to go about it in the most humane way possible, there are valid arguments by others that disagree with your idea of what humane is. If you look at many of the medical treatments that people go through, each one usually has a negative side effect to the treatment that may cause discomfort in other areas. The same thing can be said for fish. Like I said previously, medications like copper have been highly successful for me since I started keeping fish 15 years ago. I have kept hundreds of different species and not one was lost to copper treatments. Like any other medical treatment, issues can arise if it is not administered properly and I bet you will find that most people who have had problems with it did not dose it correctly or there were other external issues that resulted in the fishes demise. Keep in mind that some fish are generally doomed right from the get go and no treatment can save them. Hobbyists also have a tendency to want to assign blame to anything but their own lack of husbandry techniques so they blame it on the meds and the next thing you know, copper is unsafe and it snow balls from there.

A good example of what I am trying to say is the recent history of Latezonatus Clownfish.
Latz Clowns have built up a reputation in the rare clownfish circles as being highly disease prone due to the frequency with which they come down with all sort of maladies during acclimation. For the last couple of years, most of the specimens coming into the country were dying from these pathogens but the main reason for this was because hobbyists were trying to do the bare minimum of FW dipping and hypo because they were afraid that meds. would make them sterile. In the last year more and more of these fish are making there way into the US and people are now using copper and formalin thus reducing the fatalities to the point that this fish can actually be considered moderately easy to keep.
 
There doesn't seem to be any coherent action recommended in this diatribe. Let's take a breath and review what we think we know for the sake of some clarity and more importantly for the animals we tend and enjoy.
The enemy is ich or if you will crytocaryon and /or amyloodinium and the secondary bacterial and fungal infections they often spawn. Cryptocaryon is less lethal but if untreated lethal nonetheless. Some fish can shake it off in good environments . It is a protozoan which at times seems to be ubiquitous. Some studies have shown that its cysts can survive for over 70days without a host. Symptoms of cryptocaryon are white spots and rubbing or even twitching in the water.
Amyloodinium is a dinoflagellete algae which heads right for the gills often doing lethal damage before it's diagnosed. The key symptom of amyloodinium is labored breathing due to it's attack on the gills.
These two infections often go together resulting from the same stressor or from the weakening of the animal, due to one or the other.
Prevetion stategies include good stable water parameters including but not limited to; temperature, salinity, ph,ammonia and nitrite/nitrate control etc. Temperature swings in a short period of time may be the most dangerous. Low stress enhanced by regular feedings,lighting, adequate space and compatible tank mates. Supplements such as garlic seem to be helpful as well. Quarantine of all new specimens for at least 14days symptom free. Cleaners such as skuink cleaner shrimp also help. A properly sized UV sterilizer will destroy bacteria and dinoflagellates such a amyloodinium and if large enough will also hold down the larger protozoans incliuding crytocaryon .

Treatments: fresh water dips to cut down the infestation and quarantine with copper treatment for 14 days. A formalin dip is also helpful.

Alternatives: Euthanize or discuss wholistic appraoches and medical analogies while you watch your once beautiful fish die horrible deaths. Once the infection hits the point where labored breathing starts the fish will likely die and will certainly die without treatment. There are things you can do in terms of treatment and should in my opinion do them.Take some action and don't wait hoping for the best for too long.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10319700#post10319700 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tmz

Treatments: fresh water dips to cut down the infestation and quarantine with copper treatment for 14 days. A formalin dip is also helpful.
Click to expand...

FW dips are not needed and only effect the parasites that are on the outer most surface of the body. Copper will do what is needed on its own. No sense in stressing the fish out further with a FW dip.
 
I would suggest anyone that is a newbie to not believe the ignorance in some of these treatment methods. This is a worthless thread that should be removed from lack of knowledge. I'm done with it.
 
The freshwater dip is recommended when the infestation appears severe and a judgement is made that immediate relief is needed. This is especially true if there is labored breathing. The amyloodinium will destroy gill tissue rapidly and it is prudent to kill as much of it as possible ,quickly. Short well managed dips put less stress onthe fish than the infection does. Copper kills parasites in the water not while the in the fish.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10321965#post10321965 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by luke33
I would suggest anyone that is a newbie to not believe the ignorance in some of these treatment methods. This is a worthless thread that should be removed from lack of knowledge. I'm done with it.
Click to expand...

If you know the perfect methods than why don't you enlighten us. There has been some misleading information but there has also been some effective methods as well.
 
I am planning on buying a powder blue tang and was really interested in reading this thread when i saw it. Powder Blue Tangs often get ick when introduced to a new tank.
I found this entire thread useless and immature. Nowhere in here did I see any scientific fact. Nowhere have I seen anybody of any authority state that he has done any studies or had success with any treatment backed up with fact.
What I did see was a bunch of kids that have a little bit of past knowledge based on reading goofy threads like this one. A little knowledge does not go a long way unless you are watching Jeapordy or palying Trivial Persuit.
Picking on other people because you dont agree with their views or you just plain like argueing is a waste of our time. This thread should be moved to the lounge where it belongs.
If I ever see another thread started or participated in by the 3 or 4 main members of this arguement/thread I will ignore their views and look for information elsewhere.

Sorry, but this was a huge waste of time...
 
My final reply ojn this thread as I fear I may have done a lot more harm than good. I have heard a lot more treatment options right at the end. Interesting as I am not the only one who simpoly states stuff they have researched which I do not doubt never have. Curious I am chastised. Regardless I do not care. If several of my briefer posts did not make since it was because they were aimed at the myth buster who rather than answer in seperate replies simply edited his single reply four or five times. Why I do not know. I do not have a degree in marine bioligy and never claimed it like everyone else simply took knowledge form extensive research and spouted it off. Despite what others think I have only read one reply with backing. My recomendation was simply an all around assualt on "ich" Hit it in more spots and it will help combat it more. We are all rookies in this. I Am yet to see a text book for reefkeeping that was worth its weight. Or a college course. If there was one I would be there. As far as my grammar you work a twelve hour grave drink a fifth of Yagermeister and type It does not go well and will not be repeated. I have heard several replies I will take into consideration the next scourge I get heck.I may even buy one sick fish to put in with atest group to tryevery option I come across. for those who feel this post is worthless read it again it just opened a bundle of doors which was my intent. I will let you know in a few months how the ich tests go. And yes I will put them into the proper format for those who can only respect that and laymans terms for the rest of us.
 
Re: Ich treatment for anyone who wants their fish to live

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10300414#post10300414 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by PhillyD123
Well perhaps it is the fact that I have a nursing background and am a student of history but the freshwater dip copper and quarntine are not what I would call a good idea. Before medical care was a science, People were bled out whenever sick. This was a very crude attempt to cure any ailment barring blood poisoning. It stressed out the patient and weakened them further. Freshwater dips, Copper treatments and quarantines along with lowering the salinity are all comparable to bleeding someone out. Especially since Ich is usaully brought on by stress. Gee lets stress the fish out more it will get better. Stop one of the stages in the life cycle of Ich and boost the fishes natural immune system. Not a scorched earth/water policy.
Click to expand...

How can you compare QT with hypo or copper with "bleeding out a human? Hypo and copper have been PROVEN to kill ich but they don't nuke the fish and make their hair fall out as you suggest chemo does to the whole human body. Chemo does not nuke everything in your body, it destroys the cells in your body that reproduce quickly, i.e. tumor cells and cancer cells. Chemo also kills the other fast reporducing cells in your body such as hair folicles, the cells in the lining of the throat and mouth, etc. I know this because I have a very long time close friend that is going thru chemo right now. Please do more research here as you say you are in the "medical profession" and it doesn't sound like you know what you are talking about here either. I would say put the fifth down and grow up so you can figure out what you are talking about before trying to make a feable attempt at trying to sound intelligent.

After your rant of misinformation and pathetic knowledge of ich and QT you were then given info on QT, hypo and copper and then state "Anyway all the discussions research prove that "Ich" Is an ever present part of every tank". This is totally false and I don't know where you get your info but I have never seen any info from the reputable and knowledgeable marine aquarists that frequent RC that can even come close to "backing you up" on this. Ich can be treated and KILLED in QT with at least two of the proven methods, hypo and copper, before ever being introduced into the main tank. Please do more research here as well.

I have always put my fish thru QT and have treated with hypo when ich was noticed. No further ich have ever been seen in my main tanks since, even after "stressing out" the tank from water changes, cleaning the algae off the glass, doing the dishes, moving the live rock around, temp swings, drastic pH swings, sweeping the carpet, etc. You should really do more research here as well as ich is a parasite and if taken care of prior to intoducing the fish into the main tank, no matter how much stress you do to the tank or the inhabitants, you won't see ich afterwards.

You also state that the natural way to get rid of ich is cleaner gobys? What's gonna clean the ich off of them? Are they going to be able to get the microscopic ich cysts, etc. cleaned from the gills of fish? NO. Cleaner fish, etc. are good for picking dead cells, scales, clinging parasites other than ich but including the larger ich that can be seen off the outer portion of the fish and sometimes in the mouth. They don't or can't easily clean anything in the gills.

The reason most people have problems with your views are that in your very fist post you didn't even ask for anyone's input. You didn't ask for anyone's knowledge or for any info. You didn't even ask for a discussion. The only thing you did was rant about yourself being a former nurse and a student of history. So? Who cares? You also ranted about QT, hypo and copper are not the way to go.

Then you stated how QT, hypo, copper stressed the fish out. This is not true. Please do more research here as well.

You also state in one of your rants ""Ich" is not like a bacterial infection. You can not throw a pill at it and it will disappear. It is more like a virus let it run its course and be fought off." Where are you getting your info from? Bacteria can be killed with antiobotics. You should know this from your "medical" background. Ich can be compared to a bacteria as it CAN BE killed with a pill(call that pill hypo, call that pill copper). Ich is not like a virus, which you may or may not know, cannot be killed with a pill.

All I can say is put the bottle down, soak up some of the knowledge you are being given here. Discount the input you are getting from your "Dr." friends and help your fish fight the ich instead of watching them die from it. I am thru here but I can't wait to see how the alcohol responds to this.
 
And oh, by the way, threatening people with bodily harm or inviting people to fight with you is a sure way to get banned from RC. Not that you or the alcohol care though.
 
Philly, please don't bother me with your futile attempt at PMs. Come to the thread and at least try to understand the FACTS that everyone is trying to instill in you.
 
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