I'm done.

[CODE3EMT]

First off, do not try to insult my intelligence, I think I know the difference between the janitor and one of the biologist whom I had the pleasure to speak with during a family visit to the aquarium. Second, I never said it was the best method.......simply the method that I chose to go with. Third, as said above..... I soaked food with Selcon and VitaChem to help with appetite stimulant and give the extra boost of nutrition that would be compromised as a result of being feasted upon by parasites imbedded into the fishes tissue.

Now lets talk about the "so called" ways to rid Ich from your tank.

1) Hypo Salinity.... ya, this is awesome to do considering these animals come from 1.025 and your dropping them down to 1.009 long term. Remember not talking about a 5 minute dip here. No Thanks.

2) Copper.... ya, so essentially a slow controlled poisoning of your livestock which CANNOT be used with invertebrates or corals, suppresses appetite, and must be used in a different tank, has residual leaching effects if used in display tank. Wipes out live bacteria. No Thanks.

3) Tank transfer method...... ya, because we all have 20 spare tanks and time for that. No Thanks.

4) Meth Blue and Formaldehyde........ ya, this takes me back to #2. No Thanks.

5) Raising temperature to 82 plus degrees "old wives tail"..... Ya, No Thanks.

6) Get yourself a cleaner shrimp and cleaner wrasse..... proven myth..... No Thanks.

7) Quarantine..... a proven way to say the least, but again.... some will not admit that they practice. Not 100% guarantee of success.

8) Allowing the fish to be in a stress free eco system, fed well, and constant clean water and allowed to fight it off on their own as recommended by Monterey Bay Aquarium Biologist, seems to be the most practical IMO. Note I said IMO "In my opinion"

As was said to me the Tomonts will seek refuge in the sand bed waiting to burst when the cycle repeats itself all over again. Flushing the micro parasites out is really the most viable way.

This is not a cheap hobby by any means trust me. I fly a $2000.00 T-Rex 550E R/C helicopter and own R/C planes, Baja 5T R/C trucks, and TRAXXAS R/C cars. I have by far spent more money in the saltwater hobby then all my other hobbies combined. A $10.00 bottle of Selcon and a $30.00 bag of salt is not going to have me crying.

 

[CHSUB]

It is actually a recommended method by ich researchers - for commercial food fish farms with large raceways and direct access to the ocean.

not the ones i know.....Open Blue, a cobia farm, has a very strict qt process at their hatcher, the new Phil Frost Museum of Science giant reef tank will use NSW from Gov't Cut in Miami; both have direct access to the ocean and both follow very strict QTing.....my "go to" research paper from University of Florida, see link, says nothing about a "flush method".

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa164

 

[CHSUB]

First off, do not try to insult my intelligence, I think I know the difference between the janitor and one of the biologist whom I had the pleasure to speak with during a family visit to the aquarium. Second, I never said it was the best method.......simply the method that I chose to go with. Third, as said above..... I soaked food with Selcon and VitaChem to help with appetite stimulant and give the extra boost of nutrition that would be compromised as a result of being feasted upon by parasites imbedded into the fishes tissue.
.

wasn't insulting your intelligence, was making "a little" joke about the janitor, however!!! with regards to your "method"; it is not one. you are crossing your fingers and hoping for the best....if you want me to list my bona fides to confirm my stance, i will; but if you read the link i posted earlier, i should not have to!!! :frog:

 

[ThRoewer]

It is actually a recommended method by ich researchers - for commercial food fish farms with large raceways and direct access to the ocean.

not the ones i know.....Open Blue, a cobia farm, has a very strict qt process at their hatcher, the new Phil Frost Museum of Science giant reef tank will use NSW from Gov't Cut in Miami; both have direct access to the ocean and both follow very strict QTing.....my "go to" research paper from University of Florida, see link, says nothing about a "flush method".

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa164

If I remember correctly it is mentioned in Noga or one of the papers he cites. I would need to look that up.
And no one ever said it is a method to eliminate ich. It is a method to keep the infection rate low enough so that the fish don't die.

My method of choice is extensive observational quarantine over two months (primarily against everything but ich) and immunization against the ich strain(s) that might be in my tank (by using DT water for the QTs).

I would prefer to have no ich in my tanks, but that train has left the station a year ago and I won't put my established fish through the possibly futile ordeal of spending 3 months in a barren QT while the DT is going fallow. I know for sure that would do more harm and I would for sure have losses.
In the last 20 years I haven't lost a single fish to ich.

I know that Steve might disagree, but in my experience ich is a weakness parasite. Otherwise healthy and fit fish in a low stress environment can and will fight off a low level ich exposure by acquiring immunity.
If you have constantly ich issues I would suggest to look what might be wrong with your tank and the fish community in it.

In my experience Tangs are the prime culprits because in 90% of the tanks you find them in they are stressed out to the max due to overcrowding or not enough space. A high aggression level is often a good indicator for a seriously stressed out fish.

 

[snorvich]

My method of choice is extensive observational quarantine over two months (primarily against everything but ich)

I agree.

I know that Steve might disagree, but in my experience ich is a weakness parasite. Otherwise healthy and fit fish in a low stress environment can and will fight off a low level ich exposure by acquiring immunity.
If you have constantly ich issues I would suggest to look what might be wrong with your tank and the fish community in it.

I partially agree. While I do TTM on all incoming fish, eliminating any new strain of ich, I agree that many aquarists create high stress environments through over crowding and possibly under feeding. If ich is present in that situation, it can over whelm fish.

In my experience Tangs are the prime culprits because in 90% of the tanks you find them in they are stressed out to the max due to overcrowding or not enough space. A high aggression level is often a good indicator for a seriously stressed out fish.

I totally agree

 

[CHSUB]

If I remember correctly it is mentioned in Noga or one of the papers he cites. I would need to look that up.
And no one ever said it is a method to eliminate ich. It is a method to keep the infection rate low enough so that the fish don't die.

My method of choice is extensive observational quarantine over two months (primarily against everything but ich) and immunization against the ich strain(s) that might be in my tank (by using DT water for the QTs).

I would prefer to have no ich in my tanks, but that train has left the station a year ago and I won't put my established fish through the possibly futile ordeal of spending 3 months in a barren QT while the DT is going fallow. I know for sure that would do more harm and I would for sure have losses.
In the last 20 years I haven't lost a single fish to ich.

I know that Steve might disagree, but in my experience ich is a weakness parasite. Otherwise healthy and fit fish in a low stress environment can and will fight off a low level ich exposure by acquiring immunity.
If you have constantly ich issues I would suggest to look what might be wrong with your tank and the fish community in it.

In my experience Tangs are the prime culprits because in 90% of the tanks you find them in they are stressed out to the max due to overcrowding or not enough space. A high aggression level is often a good indicator for a seriously stressed out fish.

i will agree ich is not a very good killer and didn't evolve as one...as people maintain tanks with ich present using various "methods". i had an outbreak in 2012, despite QT all fish, and lost my hippo tang, no other fish died but all had ich. i was determined to have a hippo, so i fallowed the tank. However, i was unable to remove a coris and a betta. i did several huge wc and used my diatom filter, in nov 2012 added fish and a new hippo back to DT; never saw ich again. i was lucky this worked, however, i would not consider this a "method". i would believe a large fishery could employ similar flushing methods to maintain their stock, but only because nothing else is feasible.

hopefully the OP does not follow the advice from the janitor at the Monterey Bay Aquarium (joking :spin1 and uses some of the more proven methods and stocks his tank properly....

 

[ginpang]

i will agree ich is not a very good killer and didn't evolve as one...as people maintain tanks with ich present using various "methods". i had an outbreak in 2012, despite QT all fish, and lost my hippo tang, no other fish died but all had ich. i was determined to have a hippo, so i fallowed the tank. However, i was unable to remove a coris and a betta. i did several huge wc and used my diatom filter, in nov 2012 added fish and a new hippo back to DT; never saw ich again. i was lucky this worked, however, i would not consider this a "method". i would believe a large fishery could employ similar flushing methods to maintain their stock, but only because nothing else is feasible.



hopefully the OP does not follow the advice from the janitor at the Monterey Bay Aquarium (joking :spin1 and uses some of the more proven methods and stocks his tank properly....

So you did fallow with two remaining immuned fish ? I always wondered about that...

 

[CHSUB]

So you did fallow with two remaining immuned fish ? I always wondered about that...

i did, so it wasn't really fallow. i couldn't catch the two fish, and went 3 full months before adding fish again. i was just lucky, imo, that ich didn't come back. the next step was to break the tank down, but luckily that was avoided. imo, the ich did not find the fish, because both fish showed signs of ich during outbreak. i do not think immunity had anything to do with it. imo, their (ich) numbers where reduced by wc and diatom filtering and they failed to find the host(fish). it worked for me, but i would not recommend this...i bet it was a 1 in a hundred shot!!!

 

[ThRoewer]

If the fish are actually fully immune ich will have no host to survive on.

Even in a fully stocked system with an occult ich infection, it may over time die out due to dwindling numbers, predators (fresh fallen off parasites are tasty snacks for many tank inhabitants, including fish), or just lack of genetic exchange with other strains.

That's one reason why you should always be careful. If ich has died out in your tank your fish may slowly lose their immunity against it and may be vulnerable again.

 

[OrionN]

I watch my tank for anything but Ich. IME, ich is just a minor inconvenience for my fish. I my DT, when I add a fish with Ich, some of my fish have a few spots for a few days then it is gone. It never kill anything in my tank.
I think I have a relatively low fish load, and my fishes are fat and healthy.

 

[CHSUB]

I watch my tank for anything but Ich. IME, ich is just a minor inconvenience for my fish. I my DT, when I add a fish with Ich, some of my fish have a few spots for a few days then it is gone. It never kill anything in my tank.
I think I have a relatively low fish load, and my fishes are fat and healthy.

that maybe true and i'm not trying to argue, however, my dog had fleas and he was terribly uncomfortable. i would assume ich would be even more painful and cruel to a fish....where it is so easy to control, why not???

he feels much better now that the fleas are gone!!!!

http://[URL=http://s1294.photobucket.com/user/CHSUB/media/image.jpg1_zps2ujqosp2.jpg.html][/URL]

 

[ThRoewer]

Dogs can't get immune to fleas, but fish can get acquire immunity against ich.

BTW, the medication you give dogs and cats against fleas is quite harmful to them (causes cancer to my knowledge), that's why you won't find such medications for human use.
The logic for use with dogs and cats is that they don't live long enough for the harmful effects to actually matter.

 

[CHSUB]

Dogs can't get immune to fleas, but fish can get acquire immunity against ich.
.

i am not to sure fish actually acquire immunity against ich, but simply become more resistant to it.

here is a quote:

Fish that survive a Cryptocaryon infection develop immunity, which can prevent significant disease for up to 6 months (Burgess 1992; Burgess and Matthews 1995). However, these survivors may act as carriers and provide a reservoir for future outbreaks (Colorni and Burgess 1997).

here it states " significant disease for up to 6 months.....act as carriers" and although the passage uses immunity the fish really isn't immune just not overwhelmed.

 

[ThRoewer]

That's a quote from the abstract which doesn't tell the whole story and actually distorts the facts.

In the tests Burgess did, fish acquired immunity after an initial infection and then being kept clean for 1.5, 3 and 6 months. The 1.5 months fish were almost completely immune but some parasites could be found on them. The 3 months fish where 100% free of parasites. The "up to 6 months" comes from the fact that the fish were not fully immune after being kept in a clean tank for that long. But it only applies only if no ich is present. If it is present and the immune response is constantly triggered the fish will maintain their immunity.
The carrier part comes from partial immunity.
In general, the level of immunity depends on the level of infection. That's why a low level infection can simmer on for a good while.

But the study did not explore the effects of long term exposure in regards of immunity. I would think that constant exposure either leads to full immunity in healthy and fit fish or if the fish are weakened/stressed to a breakdown of immunity and a full outbreak.
At least that's what my observations tell me.

 

[CHSUB]

That's a quote from the abstract which doesn't tell the whole story and actually distorts the facts.

In the tests Burgess did, fish acquired immunity after an initial infection and then being kept clean for 1.5, 3 and 6 months. .

ok, thxs

 

[microlady]

That's a quote from the abstract which doesn't tell the whole story and actually distorts the facts.

In the tests Burgess did, fish acquired immunity after an initial infection and then being kept clean for 1.5, 3 and 6 months. The 1.5 months fish were almost completely immune but some parasites could be found on them. The 3 months fish where 100% free of parasites. The "up to 6 months" comes from the fact that the fish were not fully immune after being kept in a clean tank for that long. But it only applies only if no ich is present. If it is present and the immune response is constantly triggered the fish will maintain their immunity.
The carrier part comes from partial immunity.
In general, the level of immunity depends on the level of infection. That's why a low level infection can simmer on for a good while.

But the study did not explore the effects of long term exposure in regards of immunity. I would think that constant exposure either leads to full immunity in healthy and fit fish or if the fish are weakened/stressed to a breakdown of immunity and a full outbreak.
At least that's what my observations tell me.

This is hopeful news being that it has been entrenched in my tank for over a year. As I mentioned in another thread, I do not think my fallow period worked. It knocked it down a bit, but did not eradicate it.

 

[microlady]

Could you guys tell me more about diatom filters? I have been considering one for quite some time now. Thanks!

 

[horseplay]

I have read countless posts on this subject. My theory is that a small amount ich is good for fish immune system. I have never QT'd and there is no doubt there is ich in my tank. The fish are immune to it. Even when new fish are introduced they show symptons of ich but always cured themselves after a couple of weeks. (I do acclaimate and observe fish in a dedicated tank)

Ich parasites multiply exponentially. What this means is that if the starting number is small it take a while to get to critical mass when it becauses a problem. But once it reaches a certain threshold it will become out of control overwhelming the fish population. If a fish is immune it will be less likely for ich parasites to attach to and if there is no host to attach to ich parasites population will remain small and under control. Ich parasites swim pretty slow so it's not like if there is one you tank is doomed. Here is where diatom filter comes in. If you remove the parasites fast enough it will never reach a critical mass. Better filtration and UV also help for the same reason. So the key is to keep the parasite population under control.

 

[horseplay]

In my experience Tangs are the prime culprits because in 90% of the tanks you find them in they are stressed out to the max due to overcrowding or not enough space. A high aggression level is often a good indicator for a seriously stressed out fish.

Totally true. Unless the tang in question is a convict tang.

I think for practically purpose the focus should be on reducing aggression and stress levels and better nutrition. Of course QT/observation for new fish is important too but IMO to a lesser degree.

 

[Curt2199]

I haven't had a fish loss to crypto in over a year now since I lost a powder blue tang to it. This is in a 360 gallon reef. I know it's still in my system because if I let me temp fall to 77 my blue tangs will begin showing cysts. As long as I keep the temps up around 79-80 I rarely see cysts and if so it's 1 or 2.

I used to quarantine, treat, fallow, cupramine, hypo, etc. and even had it eradicated for a while (about 6 months) but it is so easy to introduce even with precautions that I ended up reintroducing it at one point probably via coral (because coral needs to be QT'd without fish as well). I've seen given up on trying to eradicate it because after all crypto is in the sea and it is stressors that cause it to become an issue. I focus on keeping great water parameters, good food, and a compatible stocking list. I do have some more difficult fish (Moorish Idol, Clown Tang, and a school of 5 yellow tangs) and no issues.