Injecting silicone on glass tank build???

[peppie]

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rocking
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bean is very right ! one of the probmens with it for one is you realy cant get it truele clean and new silcon does not stick well to old !

There would be no overlapping of new to old in the injection method.



and with doing to way you are talking of doing it there is no way to truele govern the presher of a silcon tube that i know of

What does the pressure of the tube have anything to do with injecting into a 1/16' gap?


are also talking about make bad joints with the silcon by letting it set up one joint at a time !


Dont understand why a joint would be bad if it is let to cure, before you ran another joint.

 

[peppie]

I am no expert but we use a lot of silicone where I work, on materials it doesn't bond terribly well to. I've found that injecting silicone always results in a poorer adhesion than squishing it into a seam. I believe it's the increased motion/flow of the silicone causes more of the adhesive to come into contact with the gluing surface. Basically, it forces the silicone into contact where injecting seems to more like extrude it through. Don't know if I'm making much sense here. It's kind of like working the glue into wood, I guess. Just squirting it on/in isn't the best method.

It does make sense.
This is one of the reasons I am not sold on this injection method.
But to argue that point.
On my tests of this method. I see the silicone entering the gap. I does take a bit more squeezing pressure from the gun to get the silicone to flow thru the joint. So there is a certain amount of drag on the silicone against the glass as it passes thru the gap.
I can also see that there are no bubbles in the seam I am injecting.
Also is it not true that, Silicone begins to cure/skin over as soon as it is pushed out of the tube? So if I am pushing it from the caulking gun right to the seam with no open time, would that not help the bonding process?

And would it get the same squish factor if the seams were to be clamped after the whole tank has been injected?

 

[jerpa]

I personally think your easiest route would to be to build a jig that allowed you space to apply the silicone while holding all the panels square and in place then squeeze and clamp it in place. It would require the same amount of effort as the other method without the uncertainties. You could inject it in this scenario while still using the tried and true method of "squishing" the seams together.

 

[eww]

In my experience, and I have tried both methods, the injection process has WAY less waste than the other method and it easily controllable to make sure the silicone completely penetrates the seam with no air bubbles. The squish method (sorry I can't think of a better name for it) is not as friendly at avoiding air bubbles. I have done tests of both methods in strength and they seem to be equally difficult to separate once dry. I am hearing the argument for both side from everyone here but I have not heard anyone say WHY the injection method is not as strong. As Peppie mentions, the silicone leaving the tube has zero time to skin before it comes in contact with the glass. That sounds like a better adhesion situation to me??? Just because it is being squeezed between the two panes does not seem to be a reason for it to be weaker. The squish method is the same amount of material being left between the panes after you scrape away the extra residual, right? As Peppie asks, is there anyone with a tank built with the injection method that has had a seam failure attributed to the silicone letting go of it's adhesion? Lets keep this going. I'm intrigued by the arguments form both sides.

 

[peppie]

eww,
Thanks for taking the time to chime in.
I am glad to see I am not the only person on this great site to test the unknown.

I wish I were close to "Puyallup, Wa " (is that on the coast line by any chance) so we could get together an compare notes.
I am in nowhere Wa, a small town near Mojoville

Anyway I was wondering if any tank manuf. use this injection method? Or do you think they all do the " Traditional assembly " ?

I have half a notion to contact a few of the larger manuf. and see what method they use.

 

[eww]

I wish I were close to "Puyallup, Wa " (is that on the coast line by any chance) so we could get together an compare notes.
I am in nowhere Wa, a small town near Mojoville

Anyway I was wondering if any tank manuf. use this injection method? Or do you think they all do the " Traditional assembly " ?

I have half a notion to contact a few of the larger manuf. and see what method they use.

Mojoville??? Is that anywhere by... What the heck is that by anyway?

I really doubt any of the manufacturers would tell you anything. I'm sure they would hide behind the "trade secret" slogan.

 

[JTL]

I have built and rebuilt a few tanks and the 1/6" gap is not critical, more critical is not to press the seams so tight that you have no silicone. I never used a jig but the largest tanks I have made are about 110 gallons. On my last build I did not even use clamps, I just used duct tape to hold the seams until they cured a bit. On that subject let the RTV silicone cure for 7 days before you add water.

This product skims over very fast, like 5 minutes max and I think it would be next to impossible to inject it into a 1/6" seam that would be satisfactory but then again I have never tried it. Jim (Uncleof6) has a wealth of experience using RTV and building tanks so I will be curious to see if he has some thoughts.

 

[peppie]

I have built and rebuilt a few tanks and the 1/6" gap is not critical, more critical is not to press the seams so tight that you have no silicone. I never used a jig but the largest tanks I have made are about 110 gallons. On my last build I did not even use clamps, I just used duct tape to hold the seams until they cured a bit. On that subject let the RTV silicone cure for 7 days before you add water.

This product skims over very fast, like 5 minutes max and I think it would be next to impossible to inject it into a 1/6" seam that would be satisfactory but then again I have never tried it. Jim (Uncleof6) has a wealth of experience using RTV and building tanks so I will be curious to see if he has some thoughts.

The part of the 1/16' gap is understood.
The statement of the silicone injected into the 1/16" gap. This has been done on my test panels and it is do-able. and successful.

The skinning over is just one of the variable I am trying eliminate in the building process.
I to am hopping Uncleof will chime in. I think he stated in a pasts PM that he has not heard of the injection method. Hope I am wrong.


UNC you out there????

 

[JTL]

The part of the 1/16' gap is understood.
The statement of the silicone injected into the 1/16" gap. This has been done on my test panels and it is do-able. and successful.

The skinning over is just one of the variable I am trying eliminate in the building process.
I to am hopping Uncleof will chime in. I think he stated in a pasts PM that he has not heard of the injection method. Hope I am wrong.


UNC you out there????

Well, then go for it.

 

[peppie]

Well, then go for it.

Well, I will go for it then.
To date no one has proven this method is wrong. No one has proven the " traditional " method is right.

My research has informed me the injection method is far superior to the traditional method in the aspect of the skinning of the silicone.

 

[cramerox]

Hey Peppie, I was trying to send you a PM but since I'm new I'll have to wait till my post count is a little higher. Here is the msg i was trying to send to you. I hope you dont mind me digging this thread back up!

Hi Peppie,

I hope you dont mind me sending you a PM. I ran across your thread while doing research and just wanted to catch up and see what method you ended up using and how its worked our for you?

I'm in the process of resealing an ADA tank - 6x2x2 roughly 180 gals. - with seam failure. I believe the process used to put the glass together is by injection. I believe it failed not because of the manufacturing technique but because of an uneven stand the previous owner was using. Failure of the silicon happened at the top part of the tank.

Did you end up using RVT 103 silicon?

Thank for your time!

Marc

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2180542

 

[Nick Milligan]

I am a bit curious also.
Was the project completed?

Nick

 

[vpaul79]

I too am wondering. My educated guess is that injection works just as well. This guy on YouTube built a tank that is still holding up as far as I know. While his build can be improved upon (immensely), the overall use of injection has worked for his large tank.

 

[NanoReefWanabe]

i am intrigued by this method, as the additional time used in set up would be worth it over trying to lay a good bead and drop a 100+# piece of glass on it without squishing it all out…

that said there is a couple things i would like to know…

how do you keep the bottom panel from moving while injecting the silicone? assuming the sides are around the bottom…

how do you control the size of the bead? are you using a hypodermic needle attached somehow to the silicone tube?

are you using a commercial/ special type of gun you can attach different tips too?

how do you stop the tubes from exploding using as much pressure as i would assume is needed to force it through a 1/16" or smaller tip..

 

[CanReefer]

I think the issue is that you're more likely to run into bubbles and air gaps. It's likely fine if it flows into the gap perfectly. But when does anything ever go perfectly in this hobby?

 

[Decadence]

Thicker silicone decreases the sheer strength of the joint. The strength in the joint comes from the bond alone. Glass is rigid and silicone is not. You want as little silicone as possible between the glass without any bubbles.

If the reasoning is hard to visualize, scale it up. How strong would it be if the silicone was an inch thick? What about Two inches thick?

 

[tkeracer619]

Uncle says no, don't do it many times over. I would take that advice.

 

[NanoReefWanabe]

Ahh but uncleof6 is also a professional tank builder who, through many many years of experience has mastered the art of laying silicone and glass into that silicone..

And though I have little difficulty laying silicone or glass onto it. .. if there is an easier way to lay up large, heavy, and potentially life threatening pieces of glass I would love to explore it. .

 

[uncleof6]

Ahh but uncleof6 is also a professional tank builder who, through many many years of experience has mastered the art of laying silicone and glass into that silicone..

And though I have little difficulty laying silicone or glass onto it. .. if there is an easier way to lay up large, heavy, and potentially life threatening pieces of glass I would love to explore it. .

This is not personal wanabe, the "you" is collective.

True, however do you not think it has been explored? (The incident report is on file with OSHA) There are always reasons that such things are not done in real practice. (many different topics.)

Peppie and I discussed this, rather at length, I don't remember if it was in open forum or via pm but I have, on a couple occasions, brought it up in open forum. Peppie decided it was not such a hot idea... whether he stood by that or not, I don't know. I did not feel the need to address this thread, because BeanAnimal, arguably one of the best thinkers on this site, pretty much covered the subject, even without tank building experience or going into specifics. Large tank building is a very serious task, and there is a right way and a thousand wrong ways. (the videos I have seen on YouTube illustrate how NOT to build a tank quite well. It is a task that is not easily learned, and if one is not willing to learn it and wants "shortcuts," or an easy way out—have someone that knows what they are doing build it for you. It is not a game to beat the odds. If you want to build a nothing 20 gallon, go for it. That is where the learning starts.

I would suggest that one find an individual willing to teach hands on. You can't learn it watching YouTube videos, and reading posts on forums. A no name self-promoter on YouTube is not my idea of good advice. (Thanks RE, a good description of the problem.) Adding to that, in the recently posted video, he violated all the rules for the proper application of the silicone; my experience tells me, if not already, he is going to have some problems down the road... That being said, some information posted on the net might just save your life, and some first timers have had success.

I don't teach tank building online. I won't. It is not that I don't want you to learn, rather there are too many variables. My interest is in safety, nothing more.

 

[treyLcham]

Just thought io would give you guys wanting to do the direct injection way some hope! First off i will just say this, I have used both ways and both do the same thing at the end of the day, and that is to hold the tank together. Now i will state some pros and cons of both direct inj and the other way. For direct inject there is no possible way you will get airbubbles even if you suck at the other way becasue if there is an air pcokect you can just keep pushing silicone into it till it pushes out con is that if you make the direct injection gap to big you can cause the tank to want to wiggle a little bit, doesn't hurt anything just is annoying imo. Pros for the second method is that you don't have to worry about buying 90# clams and tons of pipe clamps cons are you have a great chance of air bubbles if you do not do this on a daily bases and lastly you use way more silicone which i hate dealing with the mess! So IMO direct injection is the way to go if you are a beginner or only build a tank like lets say 1time a year, but if you are building tanks on a weekly bases or months it is def not the way to go because it is way more time consuming because you do have to do it step by step unlike the reg way where you just put it all together in one step and leave it alone for 3days the injections method you have to first put little silicone tacks in so that the tank can hold its self in place without the zip ties so that you can properly inject the whole tank, after doing this you have already doubled the time it takes to do it the reg way. Here is a few pictures of how i do it. I typically wait about 1 day and a half before taking the zipties out and finishing the tank. I am currently rebuilding a 50gallon and next week i am building a 60gallon low iron glass tank.(I would never go anything over 1/16 inch gap because past that and you are going to have major wiggling lol.

This third picture is of a bathroom glass that i did and as you can see it has a gap as well

O and one last little tip, if you are rebuilding a tank and dont want to kill your fingers trying to get the silicone off with a razor blade, use a dremel with a carbon steel brush and it will take it off way faster and way cleaner with no scratches left behind =) here is a video and a picture

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vA7zA32aRCs