Interesting attack on Randy's two part

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

FWIW, I'm quite skeptical of the trace element supplement/color connection in ordinary reef settings. It is quite infrequent to you hear of someone dosing a trace element cocktail for the first time seeing a quick and noticeable change in color. And plenty frequently you hear of no such change.

 

[glassbox-design]

FWIW, I'm quite skeptical of the trace element supplement/color connection in ordinary reef settings. It is quite infrequent to you hear of someone dosing a trace element cocktail for the first time seeing a quick and noticeable change in color. And plenty frequently you hear of no such change.

FWIW with many "heavy metal trace elements" (e.g. copper, zinc and in some cases iron) the lightening / color effect (as a result of zooxanthellae toxicity) is seen in 24 to 48hrs. There are many interesting studies published in this area, ironically they are often relating to the effect pollution can have on corals!

Trace elements can and do effect color--but when you began inducing bleaching there is certainly some ethical implications... JMO, carry on now

 

[john rochon]

hmm in those pics I do notice the coral ''lightening'' in color but I also notice the STYLOS in the back ground bleaching and possible even dieing on parts?? no? I've taking corals and changed tanks/lighting and had dramatic color changes.

 

[HighlandReefer]

eric michael,

I would be interested in reading one of the studies you are refering to. Unfortunately, I have not found any in my searches so far. If you could provide a link to one, it would be much appreciated.

 

[Hookup]

FWIW, I'm quite skeptical of the trace element supplement/color connection in ordinary reef settings. It is quite infrequent to you hear of someone dosing a trace element cocktail for the first time seeing a quick and noticeable change in color. And plenty frequently you hear of no such change.

Not to be the "poster boy" for FM trace elements, but I have observed a change in color within a 4 week period... my system is ULNS. I added the elements for two weeks, then got a call from my wife... and a iPhone pic of a coral that was suddenly baby-blue from it's previous blue/brown... It just Popp'ed one day when no one was looking...

Not scientific, not even backed up by before-after photos... so take it for what its worth... some internet guy, somewhere said he saw something... lol.

Tim

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

How long had it been a ULNS system?

 

[trueperc]

First off I am the one who start this thread and it was started with the subject of a distributor of FM products stating how bad using the Baking soda part of a very popular and widely used DIY two part and I have a full right to post again when that same person again attacked the same diy two part, so sorry but this thread was start about discussion of a product and business decisions.
I have no doubt as I have seen many FM or zeo or brightwell(which is what I use now) tanks showing how certain traces can really play with coral's color.
All I wanted to see in the pics if you are going to show a progression is showing what you did in your lastest pic.
Must say now that last pic shows some nice color improvement.
It would be nice to see some test or studies done on certain traces showing color improvement, maybe a few tanks of similar colored coral and add just that one trace that is believe to enhance that color ie I believe potassium is used to enhance the blues. Or maybe at least a suggested list of traces and the colors they enhance

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I have no doubt as I have seen many FM or zeo or brightwell(which is what I use now) tanks showing how certain traces can really play with coral's color.

With such complex systems as zeovit, how can you know that it is the trace elements that are having the effect?

 

[rigleautomotive]

right on RHF,even on simple systems and after 20 years experience people have a hard time telling whats working and whats not.something as simple as changing carbon,replacing filter bags or a couple degrees of temp can greatly effect colors on acroporas.so when you start adding several additives(without ingredient lables) a week into the equation,knowing what effected the coloration of a coral would be a reach IMO.
One of the bluest corals in my tank is a tenius that bleached completely and then morphed into a bright blue,albeit a stressed coral can fool you into believing you are doing something right and this sometimes is right before a RTN event

 

[Hookup]

How long had it been a ULNS system?

I have had ULNS for about 8 months consistently... I didn't bother with trace elements until that time...

The piece in that I am refering to was a new piece... had only been in the tank about a week, maybe two, before adding the trace elements. Other corals colors improved as well, but that one popp'ed from brown-green to greenish, to omg baby blue one day.

It's very likely that going from the Ocean-Wholesaler-Retailer-Me had the coral in a less-than colorful state.. in fact I can tell you it did...

It's very possible that ULNS was the main reason for the color increase, and it was concidence that the trace elements were being added at that time.

Trace elements have seemed to have made a difference in my system... though I admit it could be because I "want" to see a difference...

-some guy on the internet... lol...

 

[Boomer]

Well, he are some done on metals and color shift

Variants of DsRed fluorescent protein: Development of a
copper sensor
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2242387/pdf/2442.pdf

Mechanism of Copper Induced Fluorescence Quenching of Red Fluorescent Protein, DsRed
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2527065/pdf/nihms49229.pdf




What happens to corals when a metal gets to high like Cu++

Zooxanthellae loss as a bioassay for assessing
stress in corals
http://www.int-res.com/articles/meps/149/m149p163.pdf


others

Trace metals in the living and nonliving components of scleractinian corals
http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...serid=10&md5=d131fbd7870789ae599b0db52a9f7754


Comparative determinations of trace and minor elements in coral aragonite by ion microprobe analysis, with preliminary results from Phuket, southern Thailand
http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...serid=10&md5=0abfc9044132d11debd39264921aa663





Probably the most famous study ever done on the composition of TE in modern corals.

TRACE ELEMENT CONCENTRATIONS IN SOME MODERN CORALS
http://www.aslo.org/lo/toc/vol_16/issue_5/0786.pdf



As Eric has pointed out, more or less, it is not a need by corals but that such metals act as a toxins that cause the color shift.

 

[luther1200]

Luther

I did not change the picture by photoshop so to see that the blue parts
changed and get more.
It was only a sample to show how trace elements can work

I'm sorry I didn't mean to imply that you edited to picture. Though reading it know its does kind of sound like thats what I meant. I was just trying to reference how the angle was different and the light reflected the white/ lighter colored parts differently.

 

[HighlandReefer]

Boomer,

Thanks for the links.

 

[Lightsluvr]

My head is about to explode.... :bigeyes:

LL

 

[Crit21]

I'm a great advocate of DIY for reef aquariums, but...

I don't see the wisdom of a one-mixture-fits-all concoction. Any chemical additive that could have an almost immediate and profound effect on your corals should be separate, so that it may be independently measured and controlled. The axiom that says, "If you can't measure it, don't add it" should apply here. Who has test kits for heavy metals like chromium, nickel and zinc?

I think it's a bad idea to throw chemicals into the water without measuring the initial levels, having an acceptable target range as a goal, knowing why it's being added, and understanding the long-term effects and risks. The recommended method of dosing and observation is more of a seat-of-the-pants apprach. As the Balling method's instructions (www.reefdreams.de) state, "The requirement of each tank is different, it has to be detected in the course of some days on your own," (i.e., through observation and tinkering with the dosage).

Where's the science behind the method? How would you know when you've reached exactly the right dosage? What are the indications of dosing too much?

 

[Billybeau1]

Wow, where did you find this old thread. :lol:

I do agree with the fact that if you cannot properly measure for it, why mess with it.

Your eyes will tell you if it is good or not so good.

 

[Crit21]

It's not that old, but I found it while Googling the 2-part solution.

Sure, you can observe changes, but all too often, by the time you see ae change it's too late.

 

[bertoni]

I didn't understand your post well enough to respond. I'm still not sure what you're trying to say.

 

[Crit21]

I didn't understand your post well enough to respond. I'm still not sure what you're trying to say.

Which post?

 

[Hookup]

This one.

i'm a great advocate of diy for reef aquariums, but...

I don't see the wisdom of a one-mixture-fits-all concoction. Any chemical additive that could have an almost immediate and profound effect on your corals should be separate, so that it may be independently measured and controlled. The axiom that says, "if you can't measure it, don't add it" should apply here. Who has test kits for heavy metals like chromium, nickel and zinc?

I think it's a bad idea to throw chemicals into the water without measuring the initial levels, having an acceptable target range as a goal, knowing why it's being added, and understanding the long-term effects and risks. The recommended method of dosing and observation is more of a seat-of-the-pants apprach. As the balling method's instructions (www.reefdreams.de) state, "the requirement of each tank is different, it has to be detected in the course of some days on your own," (i.e., through observation and tinkering with the dosage).

Where's the science behind the method? How would you know when you've reached exactly the right dosage? What are the indications of dosing too much?