Interesting attack on Randy's two part

Hi

That mean i have to open the receipt of the Trace Element mixes and this is what i cannot do to protect my work.
is there a special element which you are on special interest ?
this is what i can say without problems :-)

I know that now people will come and said "look he had to hide something"
I only want protect my ideas , cause copies are fast made.
 
I find it alarming that feed manufacturers have to list every ingredient yet supplement manufacturers can bottle what ever and not have to list it, or at least that is the case here in the US. IMO all active ingredients should have to be listed on supplements just like is done with feeds.
 
Hi Gresham

I can say you exactly what is in my products , but i hope it is understandable that i cannot say the ammount of each element and which "protecting" material i use to hold the goods in solution.

You said all have to declare like the food industry do
i was also several time in the states but i never see how much.
Trace Elements and genetic changed proteins was in my Milk or
how many pesticides in my Orange ??

We use for the balling light elements a very old receipt which was developed around the year 1984 , we changed the receipt over the years cause the experience of thousands of reefers and our tests showed this over the years.
The base of the Trace Elements is the coral grow and that what corals need to grow. all that is in the elements solution , without unwanted elements in.
all salts are very high purity and this protect unwanted algea grow.

In this system, the consumption of calcium and alk the base of the dosage. calculated by the remaining trace elements which are needed by the coral for the growth or which the coral can store, based on the level of natural seawater.

Then you need to compare the ionic inbalance. That we said on balling light to make a weekly waterchange has a very simple reason

1. A regular water change is always the best methode to keep a tank stabil
2. due to the waterchange you automatical check your salinity and then it is easy to set up the right level.

If you have a tank in old style version , which means slightly yellow water, big Soft corals some higher algeas and a heavy fish load you will and you cannot see the difference in the quality of the salts and solutions. In modern reef tanks with SPS , LPS , high power lighting, skimming and bright corals you can see this very fast. many people which have problems with unwanted algea grow, Cyanobacterias add to much and the wrong elements in their tank, cause the use the chaepest possible salts to control the water parameters

It has a reason why european reefers use the balling methode for so many years with great succes. Their long time experience in coral keeping showed this.

rgds claude
 
Lots of people are successful with plain two-parts, too. That people are successful with the Balling method does not imply that the trace element solutions are useful or helpful. It just implies that such solutions are not extremely toxic.
 
HI Jonathan

I did not say that 2 part is not working , i only say that balling is different and a lot of people seemed to fight a war against balling and gives some very negativ and wrong postings to the balling methode , Whyever nobody and at last me wants to attack or made the 2 part methode bad , i only say that there are different possibilitys and its the user own choice which one he wants try.
I react on that posting which give balling a very bad note and i did not understand why the people think that ?

What we can discusse it´s the role of Trace Elements the puritiy of salts and the long time effect on the dosing of elements and salts, without any emotions or meanings that balling is an attack against 2 part.
Balling is much older and simply longer in use so there is no need of an attack and surly not wanted by any producer.
 
Claude,

I agree there is no point in attacking either method without the needed scientific evidence which is not available. Both systems work for hobbyists quite well. :)

Is there any data available on reef tanks that have used the Balling System for a long period of time and the heavy metal (perhaps copper) level found in these tanks. I do realize that there are many factors (such as food) which come into play. :lol:

The only studies I have seen use the different methods available without distinction (two-part, kalk, reactors, possibly Balling).

It seems that the copper level in tanks on average is between 10-40 ppb. Randy's tank when tested was at around 15 ppb if I remember correctly.
 
HI

Yes there are some data´s we have in europe also some chemistry specialists which look and control all things cause they have the laboratory to do that and they have the knowledge in detail. i have often a discussion with them cause not all can see only on the theoretical way some things in reef tank we still know only by experience. Let me search out all papers and measurements what i have and i will send them you asap

Copper as sample is not in balling light elements , why i should do them in
in normal sea salt is much more then in NSW and the corals/bacteria need copper in such small quantities that there is no argue to to keep that in the trace element.

Check out the trace elements in normal sea salt which the people can buy
some of them say that they have Trace elements like in NSW ;-) you and i know that this is defenitly not possible even not if you buy salts for 1000 USD / Kilogramm.
Based on that knowledge the balling light salts and elements are calculated and that is the reasn why this methode can be used also in ULNS System ( zeovit/ultralith ---whithout make the corals brown. any other system cannot to this on that good way.

What i did not understand is that the most reefers spends thousands of dollars for the tank and keep the sensitive animals , and then they look not on the quality of salts which they put in. that is the same you buy a Porsche and gives him old and damages tyres...

For the long time view it is very difficult to find out where are all the sources of to much elements, you cannot run a tank without feeding the fish or corals and then look only to the salts.
What i can say you that in a tank using around 5 years balling was made a test on coral skeleton and they did not find a big different agains the natural acropra sceleton.

In the view of adding and testing Trace element there is an very important point which many people forget. The ammount of Trace Elements you measured are only this which are in solution in the water , the Test say nothing about the bioavailibility and how much copper is RHF System complete.
i did not see his tank so i cannot say anything about it. what i can say is that depending on the age of a tank , the bottom and rocks there are much more elements in but they are bounded and not
bioavailable. One very well known product as sample has a copper ratio of 8 gramm/250 ml
it is not a problem for the tank cause the dosing scedule is not daily and the mix prevent that the solution is complete bioavailable.
Older tanks wich PH Level fall down can open this sources and then you will have the problems but did not remember how much and how often you dose the elements ín.

I hope you can understand what i mean
 
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Claude,

I would be interested in any data you have, thanks. :)

Good point regarding the heavy metals tied to organic matter. This subject is very complicated and scientists are just beginning to develop testing procedures to try and brake through this maze. :lol:

Many of the studies I have read state that once copper, for example, is tied to organic matter that it is less toxic. But, I have read other articles which suggest that lead tied to organic matter may acutally be more toxic than the ions and inorganic forms and this may vary from organism to organism. The effects that heavy metals have on bacterial populations may be the most dramatic and certainly the organo-heavy metals can play significantly into the equation.
 
The Balling solutions are different, but there's no data on whether the tanks actually show any differences in the animals' growth and other characteristics. Personally, I don't think the trace element solution is worth using in a tank that gets regular water changes, although I agree that it might be harmless. I would agree would be nearly impossible to obtain.

Hobbyists usually have very little information on what's in the various salt products (and other products), so judging quality in an objective way based on the label is impossible. I understand that manufacturers don't want to give away their proprietary recipes, but the flip side is that the consumers have little information to judge the products' suitability, other than hearsay and the basic concept behind the product.
 
I agree with Jonathan. :lol:

Show me the data regarding the heavy metal content of the actual mixes and components & then we can see what the actual differences are between the two methods. The manufacturers don't want to release this, but IMHO, if the heavy metal content is truly low, then I would think they would want to release this information for marketing purposes. The lower the heavy metal content the better the salt mix IMHO provided the major parameters are within the acceptable range. It doesn't really matter to me how you brake up the components of a salt solution, it is the final results we are interested in. Plenty of heavy metals are added in food sources alone. Methods used to remove the heavy metals from the components used to make up a final salt mix are very expensive and IMHO would result in costs beyond most hobbyists reach.

Until then (which is not likely to happen until some University decides to do an expensive study) it is futile to argue.
 
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HI Jon

You see in europe we know that only water change is not enough :-)
( but maybe the europe saltmixer uses to less elements :-D :-D )

I will try to get some UK Reefers to write here what happens since they used and changed the systems
maybe this will also help to understand and it is not only me which say this.

Did you both are on Macna ?

rgds claude
 
6500 costumers
more then 25 years experience
and over 12 years active forum work in germany biggest forum.

Then i do many tests
Work for 5 years for different universitys to breed sponges
2 years philipines working at the coral farm project
5 years owner of Fauna Marin

After that time i know that in the most tanks which have a skimmer and a normal animal load a regular waterchange is not enough for long time
running.
 
C. Schuhmacher said:
Hi Gresham

I can say you exactly what is in my products , but i hope it is understandable that i cannot say the ammount of each element and which "protecting" material i use to hold the goods in solution.

You said all have to declare like the food industry do
i was also several time in the states but i never see how much.
Trace Elements and genetic changed proteins was in my Milk or
how many pesticides in my Orange ??


rgds claude
Click to expand...

Pesticides are not an ingredient in food. They are a product of growing it, but that is besides the point and off topic in regards to this thread. I am only talking in context of the marine ornamental industry. You can slap your label on any old bottle of chemicals and not declare all that is in it, we in the MO feed business can't. There is no reason to hold one of us up to higher standards and yet allow the other to do what they please.

Just by the very fact you won't divulge your "protecting material" proves my point. I have to list that on my label yet you don't.
 
H Gresham

I am under stronger control in germany as the human food industry

1. we have monthly completly checks of all foods
2. we send every batch or new product to a special place in germany included the exact receipt
3. i write more on the bottles as the most food products for human do.

...

on personal use i can understand your point and you are right. but which benefit you have if i write on the bottle
3500 mg "2-Aminoethansulfonsäure" i try to write so much as possible but there is also an interest to safe my ideas and so i can understand every company not to say so much that competitors will copy the product in a few minutes without all costs for developtement.

I find other products on the market which writes a lot on the bottles , if you have knowledge in chemistry you can only have a big lough about so much
b....****.. It is that what you want ?

rgds claude
 
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