Interesting attack on Randy's two part
- Thread starter trueperc
- Start date
rsuplido
Member
Interesting... Thanks Tatu!
In that case, FM deserves a lot of credit then for creating their trace element products, if they do indeed contain all those chemicals, pre-mixed.
My chemistry is a bit rusty so I really don't know what the corresponding common names for those trace element chemicals are. When can we expect a "Randy 2-part Plus" (with added trace elements) article/tutorial to come out?
AQD_ottawa
New member
Wow seems my thread has caused quite a stir. So let me explain 
You all including Claude have highlighted a mistake in the original post, we did mean baking powder NOT soda, I apologise and hope that clears that up. My post clearly states Baking soda is not for reef tanks, replace that word soda with powder and everything in that statement is then rectified.
HOWEVER - What I would ask after reading some rather nasty comments about me personally here is to maybe email me, pm me phone me and highlight the mistake it can then be rectified and addressed instead of ripping into someone. We all makes mistakes dont we?
Now for the reason for the original post - As Claudes distributor here in North America we deal with 99% of all the support cases and of late we have seen a rise in people (maybe not as all chemically educated as you guys) opting for cheaper alternatives thinking it is the exact same product and then running into all sorts of issues such as Algea. Our purpose of the thread is basically saying stick to the product that is designed 100% for reef tanks and you will not go wrong, this does not mean if educated you can not follow RHF method, but from experience dealing with the support cases this has lead to un educated issues.
In regards to threads being closed, we closed it due to this thrad on RC, we could see what was happening and did not want some crazy miss guided debate.
I am not going to go into here why FM salts should be used as we are not in our sponsored forum and Claude is way better at explaining what he has added and why these elements are important.
I do hope now this thread can take on a more positive debate, we ALL have a lot to learn from Claude, and I do hope this now clears everything else up, and to those that post not very pleasant things about me in an open forum I suggest you contact me directly next time so we can talk about it. We are all adults right???
You all including Claude have highlighted a mistake in the original post, we did mean baking powder NOT soda, I apologise and hope that clears that up. My post clearly states Baking soda is not for reef tanks, replace that word soda with powder and everything in that statement is then rectified.
HOWEVER - What I would ask after reading some rather nasty comments about me personally here is to maybe email me, pm me phone me and highlight the mistake it can then be rectified and addressed instead of ripping into someone. We all makes mistakes dont we?
Now for the reason for the original post - As Claudes distributor here in North America we deal with 99% of all the support cases and of late we have seen a rise in people (maybe not as all chemically educated as you guys) opting for cheaper alternatives thinking it is the exact same product and then running into all sorts of issues such as Algea. Our purpose of the thread is basically saying stick to the product that is designed 100% for reef tanks and you will not go wrong, this does not mean if educated you can not follow RHF method, but from experience dealing with the support cases this has lead to un educated issues.
In regards to threads being closed, we closed it due to this thrad on RC, we could see what was happening and did not want some crazy miss guided debate.
I am not going to go into here why FM salts should be used as we are not in our sponsored forum and Claude is way better at explaining what he has added and why these elements are important.
I do hope now this thread can take on a more positive debate, we ALL have a lot to learn from Claude, and I do hope this now clears everything else up, and to those that post not very pleasant things about me in an open forum I suggest you contact me directly next time so we can talk about it. We are all adults right???
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FM also sells Balling trace elements as separate products (as do other EU manufacturers).
http://shop.faunamarin.de/index.php?cat=c27_Trace-B-Balling-Trace-Elements.html
C. Schuhmacher
New member
Hi tatu
The Trace element mix which you showed is the mix of the
Classical Version
After the years we changed the mixes and the composition of the salts
and solutions due to the changes in modern reef keeping.
More light , better Skimming , the well etablished ULNS Systems need to create a modern and easy to use System.
rgds Claude
PS the new stickers are ready and then you have also your
better explanation on it like you wish ;-)
The Trace element mix which you showed is the mix of the
Classical Version
After the years we changed the mixes and the composition of the salts
and solutions due to the changes in modern reef keeping.
More light , better Skimming , the well etablished ULNS Systems need to create a modern and easy to use System.
rgds Claude
PS the new stickers are ready and then you have also your
better explanation on it like you wish ;-)
rsuplido
Member
Yes, those are the trace products I was referring to. Thanks.
First, I do not want to start up a hornets nest here but this can not go unanswered. Second, I consider Claude a personal friend and have spent time with him at MACNA on chem issues in the past and was hoping to meet up with him this year but he could make it. I have no problem with him or his methods and think his company is a nice addition to the hobby and that he is not trying to rip people off like maybe some others. I have invited him to other forums before just like Alexander.
AQD_ottawa
You seem to be the bad apple in the cart and are doing FM more damage than good. Yes, you made an error and that was not small error but a huge a error from not understand the subject matter at hand and not being educated which is comment you want to throw out at others. You apologized but yet still seem to be trying to cover it up. By the looks of that post and this one you should STOP writing, to inhibit further post hole digging.
Our purpose of the thread is basically saying stick to the product that is designed 100% for reef tanks and you will not go wrong
OH, OK, so there are a number of salt out there that are designed for reef tanks 100% and they are find :thumbsup:
Then why on earth do you post this gibberish nonsense
I am not going to go into here why FM salts should be used
Know you are tying to inform us that anyone that is serious about a reef tank should only use FM Salt and that if some else uses some other salt they can not be successful or have tanks as nice as those with FM salt, which is more gibberish nonsense. Thanks for helping out Claude :thumbsup:
So more of what you are not educated on. You mad a comment about Bromide as if it has no place in a reef tanks and concluded it should not be in any salt mix, I guess according to you. Did you read my post here at all or are you just avoiding it ?
What is he talking about ? Bromide in seawater is 65 ppm. It is # 7 of the Major ions.
Many marine fauna/flora i.e., Sponges, Algae, and Bryozoans for example, produce a number of different Bromide compounds that produce antifouling properties to ward off predators and the attachment of on wanted epibionts. It is also used as a cellular communication ion in some cells and bacteria where chloride is not used.
I see they have heavy metal sup's, I want to know why, which ones and how much. Why do we have a so called "pure" salt and then add these ? I also want to know why Barium in used in a sup with Strontium, as Barium has no biological role. Just because it is found in coral skeletons means nothing. If that is the case where is the Uranium sup, which is ~ 1/2 that of the Ba in hard corals
Here is the FM salt list of components again
1. 71.5 g CaCl2 + 5 ml Trace element mix 1 & 2 to 1 liter of water
2. 84 g NaHCO3 + 5 ml Trace element mix 3
3. NaCl-free salt mix
Trace element mix 1:
243.45 g SrCl2.6H20
356 mg BaCl2.2H20
Dissolve to water for final volume of 1 liter
Trace element mix 2:
4 g FeSO4.7H20
324 mg CrCl2.6H2O
185 mg MnSO4.H2O
98 mg CuSO4.5H2O
89 mg NiSO4.6H2O
88 mg ZnSO4.6H2O
4 mg CoCl2.6H2O
Dissolve to water for final volume of 1 liter
Trave element mix 3:
13.3 g NaF
2.5 g KI
Dissolve to water for final volume of 1 liter
Where is the Bromide that is 65 ppm in NSW, which is the # 7 most concentrated Ion in NSW and has a biological function for many organism ?
Yet is shows
356 mg BaCl2.2H20
And Ba has no known biological function in marine life. If so show me and I will shut up on this ion. And where is the Uranium ?
You never should have showed up here, as this forum is filled with lots of land mines and you are stepping on allot of them and dragging FM and Claude in with you.
Claude
Really sorry about this all but you know how I am but your guy needs a horse rein on him to pull him out of the mine field. I for one do not like all this taking place here but when one opens mouth and inserts foot one has to be able to make comments on such posts.
Tatu
it was that teenager from Netherlands (Habib Sekha) who studied coral skeletons
Teenager ? I'm sure Habib would get a charge out of that. He is the owner of Sailfert and a long time friend of mine, Billy's and Randy's. He use to spend allot of time here and was even a RC MOD till he took sick a few years back. When did he ever study corals ?
AQD_ottawa
You seem to be the bad apple in the cart and are doing FM more damage than good. Yes, you made an error and that was not small error but a huge a error from not understand the subject matter at hand and not being educated which is comment you want to throw out at others. You apologized but yet still seem to be trying to cover it up. By the looks of that post and this one you should STOP writing, to inhibit further post hole digging.
Our purpose of the thread is basically saying stick to the product that is designed 100% for reef tanks and you will not go wrong
OH, OK, so there are a number of salt out there that are designed for reef tanks 100% and they are find :thumbsup:
Then why on earth do you post this gibberish nonsense
I am not going to go into here why FM salts should be used
Know you are tying to inform us that anyone that is serious about a reef tank should only use FM Salt and that if some else uses some other salt they can not be successful or have tanks as nice as those with FM salt, which is more gibberish nonsense. Thanks for helping out Claude :thumbsup:
So more of what you are not educated on. You mad a comment about Bromide as if it has no place in a reef tanks and concluded it should not be in any salt mix, I guess according to you. Did you read my post here at all or are you just avoiding it ?
What is he talking about ? Bromide in seawater is 65 ppm. It is # 7 of the Major ions.
Many marine fauna/flora i.e., Sponges, Algae, and Bryozoans for example, produce a number of different Bromide compounds that produce antifouling properties to ward off predators and the attachment of on wanted epibionts. It is also used as a cellular communication ion in some cells and bacteria where chloride is not used.
I see they have heavy metal sup's, I want to know why, which ones and how much. Why do we have a so called "pure" salt and then add these ? I also want to know why Barium in used in a sup with Strontium, as Barium has no biological role. Just because it is found in coral skeletons means nothing. If that is the case where is the Uranium sup, which is ~ 1/2 that of the Ba in hard corals
Here is the FM salt list of components again
1. 71.5 g CaCl2 + 5 ml Trace element mix 1 & 2 to 1 liter of water
2. 84 g NaHCO3 + 5 ml Trace element mix 3
3. NaCl-free salt mix
Trace element mix 1:
243.45 g SrCl2.6H20
356 mg BaCl2.2H20
Dissolve to water for final volume of 1 liter
Trace element mix 2:
4 g FeSO4.7H20
324 mg CrCl2.6H2O
185 mg MnSO4.H2O
98 mg CuSO4.5H2O
89 mg NiSO4.6H2O
88 mg ZnSO4.6H2O
4 mg CoCl2.6H2O
Dissolve to water for final volume of 1 liter
Trave element mix 3:
13.3 g NaF
2.5 g KI
Dissolve to water for final volume of 1 liter
Where is the Bromide that is 65 ppm in NSW, which is the # 7 most concentrated Ion in NSW and has a biological function for many organism ?
Yet is shows
356 mg BaCl2.2H20
And Ba has no known biological function in marine life. If so show me and I will shut up on this ion. And where is the Uranium ?
You never should have showed up here, as this forum is filled with lots of land mines and you are stepping on allot of them and dragging FM and Claude in with you.
Claude
Really sorry about this all but you know how I am but your guy needs a horse rein on him to pull him out of the mine field. I for one do not like all this taking place here but when one opens mouth and inserts foot one has to be able to make comments on such posts.
Tatu
it was that teenager from Netherlands (Habib Sekha) who studied coral skeletons
Teenager ? I'm sure Habib would get a charge out of that. He is the owner of Sailfert and a long time friend of mine, Billy's and Randy's. He use to spend allot of time here and was even a RC MOD till he took sick a few years back. When did he ever study corals ?
Boomer,
Don't you remember how he claimed he was 17 years old :lol: Check his profile here
I know Habib... and miss him!
Habib's coral research data was published in MCRA (1 or 2, can't remember) and a subset here: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/may2003/feature.htm
:thumbsup:
AQD_ottawa
New member
Boomer without getting into some stupid argument here
1. ALL my information comes from Claude.
2. The first post was written in reaction to a guy that used Baking powder in his tank, I wrote soda by mistake, that is the mistaken part sorry for being human. if I wrote powder which was intended then this thread would not exists.
3. Yes I am saying to people who are not overly clued in DIY methods to use salts that are designed for the purpose to eiliminate such mistakes and of course I am going to suggest FM salts, I dont think Claude would be overly happy if I go suggesting another brand. But of course any brand could be used providing it is used for the purpose intended IF you do not have the knowledge to use the right elements off the general shelf.
4. Bromide - In salts not designed for reef systems these elements are "probably" not controlled and as such for the novice probably best avoided, for more info on this subject ask Claude this one as this is where the information comes from.
Our point is quite clear, we have a massive amount of uptake in balling and have seen people with less knowledge than yourself and others here run into trouble just as one reefer did as mentioed above by trying to find cheaper alternatives. So our advise has to be use substances designed for the intended purpose whther that be FM, BRS or who ever.
It is a shame a polite communication was not made to us pointing out this error instead of raging a senseless war here, which does nothing to educate anyone. We do not even come close to pretending we know half the stuff you guys do, but we do a damn good job of helping people out kindly and peacefully when asked
If you wish to make more of this than it really is nobody can stop you. I also rarely come onto the open forum unless I see my name in vein (this being the first) and I have only done so this time to stand up for myself and correct some very incorrect statements about myself personally.
Old saying "to ER is human"
1. ALL my information comes from Claude.
2. The first post was written in reaction to a guy that used Baking powder in his tank, I wrote soda by mistake, that is the mistaken part sorry for being human. if I wrote powder which was intended then this thread would not exists.
3. Yes I am saying to people who are not overly clued in DIY methods to use salts that are designed for the purpose to eiliminate such mistakes and of course I am going to suggest FM salts, I dont think Claude would be overly happy if I go suggesting another brand. But of course any brand could be used providing it is used for the purpose intended IF you do not have the knowledge to use the right elements off the general shelf.
4. Bromide - In salts not designed for reef systems these elements are "probably" not controlled and as such for the novice probably best avoided, for more info on this subject ask Claude this one as this is where the information comes from.
Our point is quite clear, we have a massive amount of uptake in balling and have seen people with less knowledge than yourself and others here run into trouble just as one reefer did as mentioed above by trying to find cheaper alternatives. So our advise has to be use substances designed for the intended purpose whther that be FM, BRS or who ever.
It is a shame a polite communication was not made to us pointing out this error instead of raging a senseless war here, which does nothing to educate anyone. We do not even come close to pretending we know half the stuff you guys do, but we do a damn good job of helping people out kindly and peacefully when asked
If you wish to make more of this than it really is nobody can stop you. I also rarely come onto the open forum unless I see my name in vein (this being the first) and I have only done so this time to stand up for myself and correct some very incorrect statements about myself personally.
Old saying "to ER is human"
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3. I don't think Claude would be overly happy if I go suggesting another brand.
I'm sure he does not but it is you with the comment not him !
4. Bromide - In salts not designed for reef systems these elements are "probably" not controlled and as such for the novice probably best avoided, for more info on this subject ask Claude this one as this is where the information comes from.
What info, what do you mean not for "reef systems " it is in almost all reef systems to include coral reefs and has more of a role that Barium by along shot. The only time it is not used was in the past many years ago, when public FOT seawater aquariums used ozone and excessive ozone was removed by degassing towers as there was little production of OTO's, as there was no Bromide. You said ;
It is a shame a polite communication was not made to us pointing out this error instead of raging a senseless war here, which does nothing to educate anyone
So, here I am trying to educated you again and YOU are not listening ! Does that mean you need 65 ppm no.
Yes, many do enter the Balling world and get themselves in trouble and when they do I invite one to x, y or z forum to inform them.
It is a shame a polite communication was not made to us pointing out this error instead of raging a senseless war here, which does nothing to educate anyone.
Somebody did try to educated you on that forum and you did not listen. I would show you but not only is the thread locked it is even not there anymore. He told you you were confusing baking soda with baking powder. YOU were the one ragging about something you do not know about and would not listen so they brought it here for an answer. That is WHY we are here. Stop the Cover-Up and post hole digging. Some of us can't be on ever forum.
We do not even come close to pretending we know half the stuff you guys do, but we do a damn good job of helping people out kindly and peacefully when asked
That is why we are here to help all and that includes you or Claude or anybody else. But 99 % of the time they (companies)do not want to come here and the reasons are obvious. They do not really want real scientific answers backed up with facts or a least some good anecdotal evidence and for sure do not want us point out gibberish nonsense. Many know me here for getting very short fused on marketing hype, nonsense, claims and gibberish BS.
If you wish to make more of this than it really is I nobody can stop you.
No, you can't that is my job here
And no I'm not making more of it you are. You made the comments so don't be trying to blame us here for posting on it. You keep opening the door and it is up to you, NOT me, to close the door.
Hopefully, for Claude's sake, this thread will end today but if you want to keep it up I will be here to post as will others.
I'm sure he does not but it is you with the comment not him !
4. Bromide - In salts not designed for reef systems these elements are "probably" not controlled and as such for the novice probably best avoided, for more info on this subject ask Claude this one as this is where the information comes from.
What info, what do you mean not for "reef systems " it is in almost all reef systems to include coral reefs and has more of a role that Barium by along shot. The only time it is not used was in the past many years ago, when public FOT seawater aquariums used ozone and excessive ozone was removed by degassing towers as there was little production of OTO's, as there was no Bromide. You said ;
It is a shame a polite communication was not made to us pointing out this error instead of raging a senseless war here, which does nothing to educate anyone
So, here I am trying to educated you again and YOU are not listening ! Does that mean you need 65 ppm no.
Yes, many do enter the Balling world and get themselves in trouble and when they do I invite one to x, y or z forum to inform them.
It is a shame a polite communication was not made to us pointing out this error instead of raging a senseless war here, which does nothing to educate anyone.
Somebody did try to educated you on that forum and you did not listen. I would show you but not only is the thread locked it is even not there anymore. He told you you were confusing baking soda with baking powder. YOU were the one ragging about something you do not know about and would not listen so they brought it here for an answer. That is WHY we are here. Stop the Cover-Up and post hole digging. Some of us can't be on ever forum.
We do not even come close to pretending we know half the stuff you guys do, but we do a damn good job of helping people out kindly and peacefully when asked
That is why we are here to help all and that includes you or Claude or anybody else. But 99 % of the time they (companies)do not want to come here and the reasons are obvious. They do not really want real scientific answers backed up with facts or a least some good anecdotal evidence and for sure do not want us point out gibberish nonsense. Many know me here for getting very short fused on marketing hype, nonsense, claims and gibberish BS.
If you wish to make more of this than it really is I nobody can stop you.
No, you can't that is my job here
And no I'm not making more of it you are. You made the comments so don't be trying to blame us here for posting on it. You keep opening the door and it is up to you, NOT me, to close the door.Hopefully, for Claude's sake, this thread will end today but if you want to keep it up I will be here to post as will others.
C. Schuhmacher
New member
Hi Boomer
Thanks for your warm words it was really a pleasure to meet you at Macna and i promise to visit you latest at the next one
This was the reason not to come this year and my less time here
it was for me more important then all the Reefers stuff :-D
I think it is better to stop now the discussions which has nothing to do with reef chemistry
I think you know me and follow my work that you know that Fauna Marin is not a hype company and that i work on a honest and fair base.
i have no problem to discuss about the products ( ingridients) and the idea´s behind them and also not about what is in the products ( most of them i just write on the back.
I remember well our last discussion about carbon and after a check of my
suppliers and the material i changed that to a better quality
due to your informations.
A distributor must not know all details in chemistry of a aquarium system and like you know we can discuss hundreds of hours about some facts or meaning ;-)
I will stay longer time here and restart the work here for the common reefers
many greetings Claude
Thanks for your warm words it was really a pleasure to meet you at Macna and i promise to visit you latest at the next one
This was the reason not to come this year and my less time here
it was for me more important then all the Reefers stuff :-D
I think it is better to stop now the discussions which has nothing to do with reef chemistry
I think you know me and follow my work that you know that Fauna Marin is not a hype company and that i work on a honest and fair base.
i have no problem to discuss about the products ( ingridients) and the idea´s behind them and also not about what is in the products ( most of them i just write on the back.
I remember well our last discussion about carbon and after a check of my
suppliers and the material i changed that to a better quality
due to your informations.
A distributor must not know all details in chemistry of a aquarium system and like you know we can discuss hundreds of hours about some facts or meaning ;-)
I will stay longer time here and restart the work here for the common reefers
many greetings Claude
C. Schuhmacher
New member
Hi
Yea she is my sunshine and looks much better then you :lolspin:
Why you think that Barium is not used ?
in my knowledge you cannot overdose it cause if you doubled the concentration of nsw it will fallen out
During my work in the university we showed that ome sponges take it in and used it for production of a protecting poison.
also molluscs and other inverts will take it in
Also we know that Barium like Str will add in the coral skeleton
in my meaning they do cause it is here and not cause they need
But ! my experices showed that the coral grow is faster and the sceleton is harder if we dose that in our facility
The sponges which get no barium was around 10 % less in grow
The next problem was that even in the same salts the concetration was very
different.
rgds claude
Yea she is my sunshine and looks much better then you :lolspin:
Why you think that Barium is not used ?
in my knowledge you cannot overdose it cause if you doubled the concentration of nsw it will fallen out
During my work in the university we showed that ome sponges take it in and used it for production of a protecting poison.
also molluscs and other inverts will take it in
Also we know that Barium like Str will add in the coral skeleton
in my meaning they do cause it is here and not cause they need
But ! my experices showed that the coral grow is faster and the sceleton is harder if we dose that in our facility
The sponges which get no barium was around 10 % less in grow
The next problem was that even in the same salts the concetration was very
different.
rgds claude
Hookup
New member
Congratulations Claude on a beautiful little girl...
Personally, I hope you, boomer, and others continue to discuss the use of trace-elements in corals and reef-systems in general, their benefits, assumed, proven and theorized.
Str and Barium are two that I know very little of, other than what you said above, they are found in the structures, but from my understanding there was no theory other then they got consumed simply because they were present in NSW. Definitely interesting to see that when present, corals produce "stronger" structures....
Personally, I hope you, boomer, and others continue to discuss the use of trace-elements in corals and reef-systems in general, their benefits, assumed, proven and theorized.
Str and Barium are two that I know very little of, other than what you said above, they are found in the structures, but from my understanding there was no theory other then they got consumed simply because they were present in NSW. Definitely interesting to see that when present, corals produce "stronger" structures....
Barium Claude is a function of parting coefficients and the concentration in NSW at x, depth, temp and salinity. That means the concentration is directly proportional the concentration in seawater and has nothing to do with a "need". It acts a substitute ion just like Sr, as it fits into the Aragonite crystal lattice. If we pretend that a coral skeleton was 100 % pure Aragonite, guess what ? You will not find any Mg++ in the skeleton either as it can not fit into he Aragonite crystal lattice. Now lets look at some other form of marine life that is 100 % Calcite. Guess what, you will not find any Sr in its Skeleton as it does not fit into the Calcite crystal lattice. That is why when Aragonite gets altered, during geologic events, all the Aragonite gets converted to Calcite and kicks out the the Sr. That is why there is hardly any Sr in Limestone but it is loaded with Mg++, as Mg++ fits real nice into the Calcite crystal lattice. In short, you cannot stick a 1 cm ball into a 1.2 cm hole.
So, they do not need it but it is there for them to pick up. Many ions get tied to crystal lattices. As I said above so does Uranium. There are also other ions in coral "aragonitc" skeltons, that you may not known about, as chemically they are "drity".i.e, Cu, Zn, Si, Ti, Cr, Fe, Mn, Ni, Co, Ti, Pb, Sc and U. Just for example, Boron is 2-4 x as must as as Ba. And there is more Ti than Ba by 2x. When have you ever herad that corals need Boron in their skeltons other than if you read Randy's article on Boron in the reef tank ? The concentration of most of these is a function of temp, depth and salinity.
Back to Sr. For many years Paleoceanographers have studied core samples of ancient coral in the sea, like Chris Maupin. Do you know what ion they use to determine /reconstruct climate variability from past climates of the sea and earth.........Sr. Why ? Because its concentration in corals is a function of past cliamtes, as it is picked up by corals as a function of the concentration in seawater. You have to be pretty exact to do that and that is is what Sr does for them. Which means what ? It has no function in corals other than just being there.
Can either of these ions, Sr or Ba increase coral growth. Well, yes, maybe, as it is filling that "hole" before say a Ca++ is. But we can say the same for other ions also. That does not = Needed. I have no issue with one keeping ions the same or near NSW, the issue is being able to measure them. And if you know anything about Barium it is very toxic to life forms. Therefore why add it if it is not needed. Have you ever measured a running reef tank for Barium to see what it is at.
The sponges which get no barium was around 10 % less in grow
Ok that is called a test with data, where is the date to support it is really the Barium. One cannot assume it is Barium as it "seems" to be. How do you know it is not some other ion that is in the Barium Sup. Your Barium sup is not 100 % Pure Barium Chloride. Just because they grow faster, even if it was the Barium, does not mean it is needed for growth, anymore than Sr is. They grow just fine without them. And what sponges would those be ? Calcareous Sponges, they are no different than corals, mollusks, forams or other calcareous fauna or flora. What about Silica based sponges ?
A read on the issue of Sr/Ba ratio is seawater
Barium and strontium uptake into larval protoconchs and statoliths of the marine neogastropod Kelletia kelletii
http://biology.fullerton.edu/dzacherl/GCA67_p4091_4099.pdf
So, they do not need it but it is there for them to pick up. Many ions get tied to crystal lattices. As I said above so does Uranium. There are also other ions in coral "aragonitc" skeltons, that you may not known about, as chemically they are "drity".i.e, Cu, Zn, Si, Ti, Cr, Fe, Mn, Ni, Co, Ti, Pb, Sc and U. Just for example, Boron is 2-4 x as must as as Ba. And there is more Ti than Ba by 2x. When have you ever herad that corals need Boron in their skeltons other than if you read Randy's article on Boron in the reef tank ? The concentration of most of these is a function of temp, depth and salinity.
Back to Sr. For many years Paleoceanographers have studied core samples of ancient coral in the sea, like Chris Maupin. Do you know what ion they use to determine /reconstruct climate variability from past climates of the sea and earth.........Sr. Why ? Because its concentration in corals is a function of past cliamtes, as it is picked up by corals as a function of the concentration in seawater. You have to be pretty exact to do that and that is is what Sr does for them. Which means what ? It has no function in corals other than just being there.
Can either of these ions, Sr or Ba increase coral growth. Well, yes, maybe, as it is filling that "hole" before say a Ca++ is. But we can say the same for other ions also. That does not = Needed. I have no issue with one keeping ions the same or near NSW, the issue is being able to measure them. And if you know anything about Barium it is very toxic to life forms. Therefore why add it if it is not needed. Have you ever measured a running reef tank for Barium to see what it is at.
The sponges which get no barium was around 10 % less in grow
Ok that is called a test with data, where is the date to support it is really the Barium. One cannot assume it is Barium as it "seems" to be. How do you know it is not some other ion that is in the Barium Sup. Your Barium sup is not 100 % Pure Barium Chloride. Just because they grow faster, even if it was the Barium, does not mean it is needed for growth, anymore than Sr is. They grow just fine without them. And what sponges would those be ? Calcareous Sponges, they are no different than corals, mollusks, forams or other calcareous fauna or flora. What about Silica based sponges ?
A read on the issue of Sr/Ba ratio is seawater
Barium and strontium uptake into larval protoconchs and statoliths of the marine neogastropod Kelletia kelletii
http://biology.fullerton.edu/dzacherl/GCA67_p4091_4099.pdf
C. Schuhmacher
New member
HI
We have some institutes here which can detect
The sponges was an silicate sponge from the mediteranen sea
The scientist want to breed it to get some special proteins
to produce medicine against cancer and others
my work was to create the systems where they can make the checks and
i build the tank systems and support them for 4 years in 2 of their biggest research groups
there i have still today the possibilty to let check also difficult chemicals cause they have a laboratory for seawater in Karlsruhe and Kiel
The checks was very interesting and so i learn more about it.
some information you find out under www.biotecmarin.de
The Barium part was normaly less then 10 % of natural sewater
using 2 brand name sea salts.
rgds claude
We have some institutes here which can detect
The sponges was an silicate sponge from the mediteranen sea
The scientist want to breed it to get some special proteins
to produce medicine against cancer and others
my work was to create the systems where they can make the checks and
i build the tank systems and support them for 4 years in 2 of their biggest research groups
there i have still today the possibilty to let check also difficult chemicals cause they have a laboratory for seawater in Karlsruhe and Kiel
The checks was very interesting and so i learn more about it.
some information you find out under www.biotecmarin.de
The Barium part was normaly less then 10 % of natural sewater
using 2 brand name sea salts.
rgds claude
Hookup
New member
to be clear, can we define "need"?
to say the coral dose not need these ions, dose that imply that they do not benefit from them as well? Or does it imply that it simply, its used, without positive or negative affect?
To me, I would be interested if corals benefited, but did not need... any benefit, well is just that...
Sorry for my under-educated questions, obviously you both have a level of education, experience and knowledge that surpasses mine... please redirect me to reading/sources if and when approperiate.
Tim
to say the coral dose not need these ions, dose that imply that they do not benefit from them as well? Or does it imply that it simply, its used, without positive or negative affect?
To me, I would be interested if corals benefited, but did not need... any benefit, well is just that...
Sorry for my under-educated questions, obviously you both have a level of education, experience and knowledge that surpasses mine... please redirect me to reading/sources if and when approperiate.
Tim
luther1200
Premium Member
I understand the question, Say for example a human being doesn't "need" to eat right to live. But if you eat right you will benefit from it.
