Is metal halide dead?

[malira]

In a plant that is making other lamps for other uses. There may be enough demand to keep a line running, or run a batch here and there, but not enough to keep an entire plant going.

How do you know this? Is this first hand knowledge or supposition?

 

[Wazzel]

I'd agree, but to put money into production of a discontinued item at all is saying something.

I do not know enough about lamp manufacturing to know if that was a big tooling cost/investment or not. It could have been a simple as getting different material for the filament and no retooling cost at all.

 

[Wazzel]

How do you know this? Is this first hand knowledge or supposition?

The phoenix 250w 14k lamp is manufactured by Phoenix Electrical Co of Japan. They manufacture lamps for a variety of applications. This is not their only product.

 

[reefwiser]

Use whatever works for you. Just because you use MH or LED doesn't make another person wrong if they get the same results using another lighting type than you. Many paths lead to the same spot. [emoji3]

 

[gcarroll]

IMO, metal halide technology is absolutely a dead technology. There are no new advancements coming out of the metal halide world. The fact that some companies, like Hamilton, are seeing increased sales is not really a measuring stick and can be explained. Their sales have undoubtedly increased due to decreased competition. The major metal halide companies of yesteryear such as PFO & Sunlight Supply no longer supply the aquarium industry with the premium reflectors that we used to light our tanks. Many metal halide bulb companies have drastically scaled back metal halide production because the market sales have so drastically decreased. This is a fact, not imaginary. Go on any of the online sites and notice that the options for metal halide are really limited.

Is metal halide still a viable lighting source? Absolutely! I have been a big fan of metal halide in the past. The problem is in this hobby, people want more control. This is why T5 took off as you could mix and match bulbs to get the overall desired spectrum. Even more so LED has allowed you to tune even further allowing you to literally dial in a spectrum that you like. With metal halide (in my dad voice), “You get what you get and you don’t throw a fit!” Is that a bad thing? Not at all, because what you get is proven performance that you just can’t mess up.

I have found that control in this hobby is not always the best thing to unleash in this hobby. I’ve seen a lot of people over think this control and end up unsuccessful. As successful as I hav4e been in this hobby with metal halide, I will absolutely be going all LED on my next system. Why, because to me it is the only light source that is still improving and research dollars are still pouring in so it still has the potential to increase.

 

[Tang Salad]

What are the reasons being quoted for leaving LED?? You see I still can't get an answer to my question.....if only ONE person on the planet can get LEDs to grow an amazing reef then LEDs must work.....so why is it some people can't get LEDs growing corals and are going back to MH? Because LEDs work...thats been proven, the only other option is user error.

I can understand your frustration, but it looks like it stems from your very binary view of lighting success. You seem to think that lighting either works, or does not work, and that there's no middle ground.

In practice though, it's all middle ground. Some lights work better than others, to varying degrees and depending on how the person defines better. SPS devotees generally chase the highest standard of better, where it's not enough to have growth and color, because both can almost always be improved, especially color.

That's why so many SPS reefers abandon LEDs- sure, they could probably achieve their goals with the right LED fixtures and the right number of them, but at the end of the day all they'll get is a light that performs as well as any old MH/T5 fixture. If they're not interested in sunrise/sunset or other things which are secondary to their goal of best possible SPS color, then LEDS don't really offer much.

 

[Wazzel]

I can understand your frustration, but it looks like it stems from your very binary view of lighting success. You seem to think that lighting either works, or does not work, and that there's no middle ground.

In practice though, it's all middle ground. Some lights work better than others, to varying degrees and depending on how the person defines better. SPS devotees generally chase the highest standard of better, where it's not enough to have growth and color, because both can almost always be improved, especially color.

That's why so many SPS reefers abandon LEDs- sure, they could probably achieve their goals with the right LED fixtures and the right number of them, but at the end of the day all they'll get is a light that performs as well as any old MH/T5 fixture. If they're not interested in sunrise/sunset or other things which are secondary to their goal of best possible SPS color, then LEDS don't really offer much.

There is no probably about it, LED does work. There are some very nice LED lit SPS tanks out there that are every bit as good as MH or T-5 tanks. The idea they don't work or do not work as well is not true. They do have their own unique set of limitation that may not work for everyone. It is nothing more than a third viable lighting system, that works as well as the other two that some people prefer.

 

[Perth_reefer]

I can understand your frustration, but it looks like it stems from your very binary view of lighting success. You seem to think that lighting either works, or does not work, and that there's no middle ground.

In practice though, it's all middle ground. Some lights work better than others, to varying degrees and depending on how the person defines better. SPS devotees generally chase the highest standard of better, where it's not enough to have growth and color, because both can almost always be improved, especially color.

That's why so many SPS reefers abandon LEDs- sure, they could probably achieve their goals with the right LED fixtures and the right number of them, but at the end of the day all they'll get is a light that performs as well as any old MH/T5 fixture. If they're not interested in sunrise/sunset or other things which are secondary to their goal of best possible SPS color, then LEDS don't really offer much.

Good post. My frustration pretty much boils down to the inability of some people to accept LED as viable lighting source for SPS reefs when there is extensive proof out there that it works well.
You're right that it is not black and white as far as whether lighting works or not, however I believe that with the correct amount of quality lighting fixtures for your tank, AND having them set up correctly, you can achieve the same results as MH, this with the added bonus of less heat, no bulb replacements and customisation of your lighting schedules.

As far as customisation goes, you're right some people aren't bothered, and thats fine, you run your own reef how you want to. I see threads on here for MH users asking which bulb to use 10k v 14k v 20k....LED users have the luxury of being able to have all three at various points during the day. Customisation doesn't just mean lightning storms and sunsets but being able to easily adjust the colour temperature of your lighting as dictated by how your corals are looking.

 

[Johnseye]

IMO, metal halide technology is absolutely a dead technology. There are no new advancements coming out of the metal halide world. The fact that some companies, like Hamilton, are seeing increased sales is not really a measuring stick and can be explained. Their sales have undoubtedly increased due to decreased competition. The major metal halide companies of yesteryear such as PFO & Sunlight Supply no longer supply the aquarium industry with the premium reflectors that we used to light our tanks. Many metal halide bulb companies have drastically scaled back metal halide production because the market sales have so drastically decreased. This is a fact, not imaginary. Go on any of the online sites and notice that the options for metal halide are really limited.

Is metal halide still a viable lighting source? Absolutely! I have been a big fan of metal halide in the past. The problem is in this hobby, people want more control. This is why T5 took off as you could mix and match bulbs to get the overall desired spectrum. Even more so LED has allowed you to tune even further allowing you to literally dial in a spectrum that you like. With metal halide (in my dad voice), "œYou get what you get and you don't throw a fit!" Is that a bad thing? Not at all, because what you get is proven performance that you just can't mess up.

I have found that control in this hobby is not always the best thing to unleash in this hobby. I've seen a lot of people over think this control and end up unsuccessful. As successful as I hav4e been in this hobby with metal halide, I will absolutely be going all LED on my next system. Why, because to me it is the only light source that is still improving and research dollars are still pouring in so it still has the potential to increase.

Well said. Probably one of the better explanations I've read.

 

[dbulick]

IMO, metal halide technology is absolutely a dead technology. There are no new advancements coming out of the metal halide world. The fact that some companies, like Hamilton, are seeing increased sales is not really a measuring stick and can be explained. Their sales have undoubtedly increased due to decreased competition. The major metal halide companies of yesteryear such as PFO & Sunlight Supply no longer supply the aquarium industry with the premium reflectors that we used to light our tanks. Many metal halide bulb companies have drastically scaled back metal halide production because the market sales have so drastically decreased. This is a fact, not imaginary. Go on any of the online sites and notice that the options for metal halide are really limited.

Is metal halide still a viable lighting source? Absolutely! I have been a big fan of metal halide in the past. The problem is in this hobby, people want more control. This is why T5 took off as you could mix and match bulbs to get the overall desired spectrum. Even more so LED has allowed you to tune even further allowing you to literally dial in a spectrum that you like. With metal halide (in my dad voice), "œYou get what you get and you don't throw a fit!" Is that a bad thing? Not at all, because what you get is proven performance that you just can't mess up.

I have found that control in this hobby is not always the best thing to unleash in this hobby. I've seen a lot of people over think this control and end up unsuccessful. As successful as I hav4e been in this hobby with metal halide, I will absolutely be going all LED on my next system. Why, because to me it is the only light source that is still improving and research dollars are still pouring in so it still has the potential to increase.

Agreed.

 

[Tang Salad]

I'm not sure I'd agree that: no new advancements = a 'dead' technology. There are many technologies we all use daily that haven't seen any substantive advancements in decades.

 

[NewJack]

I think I'll just stick with MH on my indoor hydroponic grow out. But, Might be willing to give LED a shot over the aquarium. opps! did I just say that?

Great post. +1 on gcarrol's statements

 

[dbulick]

I'm not sure I'd agree that: no new advancements = a 'dead' technology. There are many technologies we all use daily that haven't seen any substantive advancements in decades.

How many companies are still making plasma TVs? It is a similar comparison. People ditched them for more energy efficient LED.

Prices will also continue to come down on LED units as more players hey in the game.

 

[malira]

There is no probably about it, LED does work. There are some very nice LED lit SPS tanks out there that are every bit as good as MH or T-5 tanks. The idea they don't work or do not work as well is not true. They do have their own unique set of limitation that may not work for everyone. It is nothing more than a third viable lighting system, that works as well as the other two that some people prefer.

Yes, Leds grow and can grow well, no question, no argument, but for pure performance with the same set up, everything being equal MH out grow Leds.

 

[Wazzel]

Yes, Leds grow and can grow well, no question, no argument, but for pure performance with the same set up, everything being equal MH out grow Leds.

I have run both and do not find that to be the case.

 

[hkgar]

As I previously state, I think, I am back to MH from Hydra 52's. The big down side of LED, IMHO.as the penetration of the light. I have a PAR meter and the drop off in 6 inches of water could be as much as 200. And the sideways distance from the light was also a source of significant par loss.

 

[Tang Salad]

How many companies are still making plasma TVs? It is a similar comparison. People ditched them for more energy efficient LED.

Yes, plasma TVs are pretty much dead technology. But how about:

• non-electric razors
• eyeglasses
• gasoline engines
• gas ranges
• inkjet printers...

Are all of those 'dead technologies' because there are newer, or more convenient, or more energy efficient options available? Of course not. That's why it isn't a good definition. Instead, it seems better suited as a way to put down what is still a very viable lighting choice.

 

[hkgar]

Yes, plasma TVs are pretty much dead technology. But how about:

• non-electric razors - electric
• eyeglasses - Contacts
• gasoline engines - Darn can't think of a replacement
• gas ranges - electric
• inkjet printers... - Laser

Are all of those 'dead technologies' because there are newer, or more convenient, or more energy efficient options available? Of course not. That's why it isn't a good definition. Instead, it seems better suited as a way to put down what is still a very viable lighting choice.

 

[Johnseye]

Originally Posted by Tang Salad View Post
Yes, plasma TVs are pretty much dead technology. But how about:
non-electric razors - electric
eyeglasses - Contacts
gasoline engines - Darn can't think of a replacement
gas ranges - electric
inkjet printers... - Laser

Are all of those 'dead technologies' because there are newer, or more convenient, or more energy efficient options available? Of course not. That's why it isn't a good definition. Instead, it seems better suited as a way to put down what is still a very viable lighting choice.

I think his point was that all those were replaced by something, which you clarified. Also gas engines are being replaced by hybrid and electric.

MH is obviously not "dead" as in gone and not coming back. Other solutions are taking away from its market share. When this gets to a point when MH is no longer manufactured, then it will be dead and gone. Who knows if it will ever happen. It won't be killed because of regulation so as long as there's a demand it should exist in some form.

Oh, and you can still get a plasma TV so it's not dead yet. There are many things that are better about plasma vs. LED. ie. black level and viewing angle. A great comparison to aquarium lighting. They became more expensive to make than LED and the demand decreased to where it was not cost effective. As LED technology improved and costs decreased plasma stopped being manufactured as much. Maybe a better question is, "Is metal halide dieing". Probably a slow death.

 

[hkgar]

I think his point was that all those were replaced by something, which you clarified. Also gas engines are being replaced by hybrid and electric.

MH is obviously not "dead" as in gone and not coming back. Other solutions are taking away from its market share. When this gets to a point when MH is no longer manufactured, then it will be dead and gone. Who knows if it will ever happen. It won't be killed because of regulation so as long as there's a demand it should exist in some form.

I know. I think a more apropos comparison might be electric guitars replacing acoustic. You sure can create a lot of different musical tones, etc, with an electric guitar, but sometimes you just can't beat the pure sound of acoustic. Even, if you are old enough, the Eagles think so.