Is our hobby ethical?

[jwildman]

I do my best to buy captive bred critters and corals .. I think you have to do the best you can and think about the future of our hobby. If things continue on their current course, will all wild captures be illegal? That would force the hobby to deal with conservation.

 

[Frick-n-Frags]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9539178#post9539178 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Peter Eichler
Frags are just not unethical. With prices some people are charging for the Orange Radioactive Martian Eaters it's certainly would be tough to argue frags being ethical

[I just wait out the trends. purple acros are everywhere now. next year PPE zoos and superman montis will be too.]



edit: good call, fish like me, on editing that post

 

[Sk8r]

If it weren't for us and the divers nobody but the scientists would care. When we set up a beautiful tank and people SEE what's down there they wince when they hear some stupid yacht owner dragged an anchor across a reef, or a tanker spilled, etc. Otherwise, out of sight, out of mind: but if somebody flashes on that beautiful image---suddenly the significance is much more. If it weren't for captive dolphins, there wouldn't be the fuss about saving them---they'd just be a casualty of the tuna nets. A throwaway. If it weren't for traveling shows, zoos and documentaries, nobody'd care about gorillas or the occasional rare butterfly: nobody'd learn to care about snakes, or sharks, or what's under the ice sheets at the poles. We're responsible for equipping the g.p. with imagination, if they happened to be born without it. And WE have to care in order to do that.

 

[omni2226]

Ethical? We are talking about rocks and animals not refugees from the middle east wars.

The amount of so called damage done by this hobby is piddling in comparison to what commercial fishing does.
And once you factor in earthquakes,hurricanes and tsunamis the damage we do in comparison becomes a joke.

If it I ever see a PITA person blocking my access to a LFS I will run em over with my SUV and cover them up with a I belong to"People Eat Tasty Animals" t-shirt.

 

[jefathome]

I wouldn't say that our lifespans are neccesarily shorter than in the wild. At least we don't have sharks, barracuda, big-old groupers, large snappers, and that sort of stuff trying to EAT our fish.

Not that this has any bearing on the ethical (or un) merits of this hobby. Just something to take into consideration.

I still try to get as much Aqua-cultured stuff as possible though.
The only place where I have trouble is with my love of Scolymia. Those are not being farmed as far as I know.

 

[dc]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9539431#post9539431 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Sk8r
If it weren't for us and the divers nobody but the scientists would care. When we set up a beautiful tank and people SEE what's down there they wince when they hear some stupid yacht owner dragged an anchor across a reef, or a tanker spilled, etc. Otherwise, out of sight, out of mind: but if somebody flashes on that beautiful image---suddenly the significance is much more. If it weren't for captive dolphins, there wouldn't be the fuss about saving them---they'd just be a casualty of the tuna nets. A throwaway. If it weren't for traveling shows, zoos and documentaries, nobody'd care about gorillas or the occasional rare butterfly: nobody'd learn to care about snakes, or sharks, or what's under the ice sheets at the poles. We're responsible for equipping the g.p. with imagination, if they happened to be born without it. And WE have to care in order to do that.

I think you are dead on here. No matter how many nature shows people watch, they are still in awe that the stuff in your tank is actually alive.

 

[Mr31415]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9539431#post9539431 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Sk8r
If it weren't for us and the divers nobody but the scientists would care...

I think this is the gist of what motivates me - in spite of other concerns - to keep doing this....

 

[Sheol]

Well someone was joking on a serious issue above. Climate change in the long run along with pollution . In a way, this reminds me of the debate we had years ago on Kingsnake.com about consevation & indigo snakes. The problem being indigos are heavily protected by law. Unfortunately, their habitat is not. So even if no one collected an indigo snake in the wild, the species is not likely to survive many more years in the remnants of its habitat. Its an imperfect world people & its not getting any better. Sigh.

Matthew

 

[buoymarker28]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9538569#post9538569 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by LU359TINMAN
Mother Nature will run her course for which we have absolutely no control over. The reefkeeper should be seen as preserving the reef, it's in our systems, that long after the natural reefs disappear, we will still be able to display these fascinating species! OF THE PAST. TinMan

Umm i got some news for you....the reefs will either be here or come back long after we humans have disappeared off this blue planet... The reef fish should put us in some structure so they can enjoy us once the human species is gone...

 

[raskal311]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9538497#post9538497 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Peter Eichler
1.) Only buy aquacultured/maricultured corals and tank raised fish.

The problem is supply, even if a LFS wanted to carry more tank raised fish there isn’t too much too choose from. As far as corals I’m seeing more and more maricultured sps which is great. Piece per piece a maricultured coral are starting to be priced very competitively to a wild colony. I’m even starting to see a lot more cultured leathers and a few other soft corals.

What it comes down to is demand, if you push for more then this will push everyone in the supply chain to offer more.

Farmers/Collectors -> Trans shipper -> Wholesalers -> Retailer -> Consumer .. and everyone else in between.

 

[greenbean36191]

Also I believe you are confusing aquaculture with mariculture.

As far as our hobby is concerned they're interchangable. Mariculture is just marine aquaculture. Neither term implies anything about the production method.

2.) Propagate those corals and breed those fish so there are more captive raised/grown specimens available. As of now demand outweighs availablility for aquacultured corals and most tank raised fish.

It seems to be a common belief in the hobby that somehow fragging and trading corals will save the reef. It's just not true. The collectors are only collecting for the hobby because it gives them money to put food on their tables. If the hobby stopped collecting from the wild today the collectors would still have to make money and the reef is still one of their best resources to do that. Some of the alternatives are muro ami fishing and coral mining, both of which are much more destructive since they're less profitable. If you think the amount of LR coming into the hobby is shocking, then you should see how much goes into construction just to make the same amount of money.

What needs to be done is to give the collectors a way to make money from the reef, but do it in a sustainable way. That doesn't have to completely rule out wild collection, but a large part needs to be in situ farming. Stateside farming doesn't do a whole lot to promote that.

 

[useskaforevil]

no its not. you are a bad person.

 

[ASH]

From IceCap:
This reminds me of environmentalists planting trees or in some other way trying to mitigate the carbon footprint they create. My way of rationalizing keeping a reef tank is to minimize the damage to the reefs by making informed purchases when possible. Voting with your money works and no one can rig the tally.

I think we need to get past the most visible damage (to the reef) and see the whole picture to really have a positive impact. If you grew all your corals from frags, used fake LR and never lost a fish there would still be the electricity you consume and the waste the hobby creates. Lamps are one example. A better one would be the garbage sold to those new to the hobby that lasts several months before needing replacement. Sure it’s a false savings for the hobbyist, but the real toll is on our planet. We live in a throw-away culture.

I’ve had my 180 gallon reef for 10 years + and have educated countless visitors on what the corals are and why it does matter to all of us. But if I’m churning through electricity like it was limitless, running 3 X 400-MH and a chiller besides the necessary water movement and filtration, all I’ve done is won the highest electric bill award and proved I don’t see the big picture.

It’s a great hobby and I love it almost as much as snorkeling at any of the outstanding reefs that still exist. But I also believe in global warming. If the sea level changes are even remotely like predicted scenarios, all of this seems like small stuff. That’s not an excuse to say the hell with it and do what you please. It is a calling to not only avoid being part of the problem but encouraging others to follow suit. I own a hybrid car. I’ve influenced several other people to do the same. I redid my tank’s canopy and lowered the height my lights were placed at. I saved 350-watts per hour when all lights are on, or 28% less than I had (from 1240 to 890 now). I’ve listened to Sanjay about how to have a longer lamp life (from unbiased testing about actual depreciation, don’t prematurely throw them out) and what our tanks need vs. what we’re told we need to buy.

As a source for aquarium products I know whatever I say can be discounted as some clever sales pitch. If working on planet saving goals benefits IceCap too, I’ll live with that. If it was the other way around, I’d have a problem. (We still repair our VHO ballasts, if they ever need it.)

For this country to get significantly inspired to become the cutting edge of sustainability, oil would have to cost double what it is now. If LR had a 100% tax on it to fund reef restorations, we’d treat it differently. I don’t know what it would take to raise consciousness to the level needed to promote real change across the board? Unfortunately, I think we’ll all find out sooner than later.

Andy

 

[buoymarker28]

Compared to the harm we doing to this earth, which directly affects the reefs, I don't think collecting live specimens even comes close.

Call me pessimistic but i believe that although humans may hurt the reefs and due to humans reefs may die out, once humans are gone from this earth mother nature will find a way to bring the reefs back or allow those that survived thrive.

I guess i'm really pessimistic short term but long term optimistic regarding reefs.

 

[GreshamH]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9540787#post9540787 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by greenbean36191
As far as our hobby is concerned they're interchangable. Mariculture is just marine aquaculture. Neither term implies anything about the production method.


It seems to be a common belief in the hobby that somehow fragging and trading corals will save the reef. It's just not true. The collectors are only collecting for the hobby because it gives them money to put food on their tables. If the hobby stopped collecting from the wild today the collectors would still have to make money and the reef is still one of their best resources to do that. Some of the alternatives are muro ami fishing and coral mining, both of which are much more destructive since they're less profitable. If you think the amount of LR coming into the hobby is shocking, then you should see how much goes into construction just to make the same amount of money.

What needs to be done is to give the collectors a way to make money from the reef, but do it in a sustainable way. That doesn't have to completely rule out wild collection, but a large part needs to be in situ farming. Stateside farming doesn't do a whole lot to promote that.

Well said :thumbsup:

 

[looser]

If you consider caring about coral reefs, and the earth in general, as being ethical, than I think this hobby is almost completely inconsistent with being ethical. We can dress up what we do as saying its raising the consensuses of the general public…but lets get real. We do it because we like the challenges, like nice things, we like eye candy, and we are basically selfish.

Not only do we cause damage to reefs during collection, but surprisingly no one has pointed out that we use a lot of energy/put lots of carbon in the air/create global warming/and kill the reefs. Not to mention the energy that goes into manufacturing and shipping our toys and supplies. And if you don’t believe in global warming your just not in touch with reality.

How much we harm the planet and reefs is open for debate I suppose, but everything about this hobby is harming reefs and the planet, and nothing about this hobby is benefiting either in any way.

So why do I do it you might ask? Because I like a challenge, like nice things, enjoy the eye candy, and I’m selfish. Shame on me.

So what am I going to do about it? Find other ways to make it up to Mother Nature. Install some solar panels, maybe a wind turbine, geothermal heating, check the air pressure in my tires, change to high efficiency light bulbs, and my next car will get more MPG.

You might think I’m being preachy but I don't particularly care. The facts are the facts. Do something about it or don’t. The outcome of that decision will be the difference between the question "is our hobby ethical" and "are we ethical people".

 

[RedSoxReefer]

I second that, this hobby is not ethical at all if preserving the world's reefs are in your best interest...everyone is in it for some kind of personal gain whether it be for pleasure or financial. I do believe that you can be more "conservation minded" when choosing your livestock etc. to try to minimize the damage caused every year to the reefs, but i am willing to bet that at least one thing in everyones tank at some point in their lives came directly from a reef.

 

[Peter Eichler]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9540787#post9540787 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by greenbean36191
As far as our hobby is concerned they're interchangable. Mariculture is just marine aquaculture. Neither term implies anything about the production method.


It seems to be a common belief in the hobby that somehow fragging and trading corals will save the reef. It's just not true. The collectors are only collecting for the hobby because it gives them money to put food on their tables. If the hobby stopped collecting from the wild today the collectors would still have to make money and the reef is still one of their best resources to do that. Some of the alternatives are muro ami fishing and coral mining, both of which are much more destructive since they're less profitable. If you think the amount of LR coming into the hobby is shocking, then you should see how much goes into construction just to make the same amount of money.

What needs to be done is to give the collectors a way to make money from the reef, but do it in a sustainable way. That doesn't have to completely rule out wild collection, but a large part needs to be in situ farming. Stateside farming doesn't do a whole lot to promote that.

I guess it depends on who you ask, but to some people at least mariculture and aquaculture are different in their production. But it certainly could be argued mariculture is just a form of aquaculture. Perhaps saying captive propagated vs. maricultured would be a better way to address it.

I absolutely did not imply that we're the only factor is hurting our reefs, nor that fragging corals will save the reef. Being less reliant on wild specimens will beyond a doubt lessen OUR impact as hobbyists on the destruction of reefs. If fewer imports from collections of ornamental fish and corals results in more destructive uses of the reef then that will be another problem to tackle. Just because we fear eliminating a problem with just spawn a bigger problem doesn't mean we should just continue being as destructive as we are in this hobby. What it comes down to is if you want to be part of the problem or not.

I fully admit I'm part of the problem, I don't have all captive raised fish, some of my corals are wild colonies (non reef building). I waste tons of water with my RO unit, I used more than my fair share of electricity, and my car makes gobs of horsepower and spews more nastiness into the air than the guy next to me in his Prius. However, I do try to do my part to make this hobby less wasteful.

 

[hahnmeister]

The idea of keeping wild critters in captivity is enough to be considered unethical by many.

 

[reefinmike]

from my research, things that threaten the reefs are the collection of:

live rock
lps corals
and certian fish species


unfortunately you dont typically see aqua or maricultured lps for sale... in fact, ive never seen one. most common are sps and softies. sps collection from what i have read dosent impact the reefs because of the relatively low demand(compared to lps and softies), fast growth rate and the fact that they are the dominate corals of the reefs and cover vast expanses of oceans.