Is there a "standard" protocol for Bayer dips?

[CIGARSC351W]

My standard dip protocol is 15ml per cup of tank water for 10 minutes. I've gone has high as 60ml per cup for 7 minutes when I was battling Acro eating Nudibranchs awhile back. Those little suckers hung tough until the dose got that high. The Acro's lost a little color but pulled through just fine, the nudi's did not.

 

[Stylo328]

I did my first dip yesterday afternoon of the eight SPS frags purchased at the frag swap. I used 20ml of Bayer complete per cup of tank water, for 15 minutes. I then had three containers of tank water in sequence. As I removed a frag from the Bayer, I rinsed it in each of the subsequent containers to ensure no Bayer made it into the display tank.

This morning all corals looked fine, having suffered no ill effects from the dip. I will post again if any casualties should result.

 

[flamron]

Any luck?

I just found the bottle.

 

[trueblackpercula]

Be very carful with tempo it's powerful stuff and kills all kinds of pest bugs roaches etc.
also harmful to kids

 

[thermoJoe]

For the test I did, it was pretty clear that Bayer Complete Insect Killer (with 0.72% Imidacloprid and 0.36% beta-Cyfluthrin) has little to no detrimental affect on AEFW. I dipped in a solution of Bayer at 50:1 dilution with tank water (i.e., ~5 mL/cup) for 5 min. This did knock one AEFW off the coral, but the worm glided around in this rather concentrated mix for 15 min. By 20 min, it was "convulsing", and by 25 min, wasn't moving. However, I then pipetted him into 50 mL of fresh tank water (with some carry over of the insecticide), and in less than 1 min he was fine, gliding around the beaker.

For the species of AEFW infecting my acros, Bayer Complete Insect Killer may facilitate AEFW detachment, but it clearly has little to no insecticide activity against AEFW. It seems equally likely that placing the acro in the dip causes increase mucus production which could be the real mechanism causing detachment, but that's just speculation.

Many others have also documented the lack of Bayer in killing AEFW. I will be doing some more testing with other "treatments" while I try to get rid of these pests.

 

[Peter Eichler]

Anyone else use the Germ killer? I think that is the one that was used originally in the other thread. Ironically, I normally do 10-15 ml per GALLON. This seems ironic to me as everyone is posting it has less of the active ingredient. This solution stays clear. At these levels, I seem to have issues with my cleaner shrimp afterwards - they survive but act lethargic for a day. The last time I dipped corals, it was only the one that went to investigate the new additions. I also rinse well afterwards.

I have never lost any corals 100% to this dip. The one thing I will say is that if you are dipping acros from your tank, I would change out the water after 2-3 dips. I have had some acros in dips later that take a hit. I don't know if the pests release toxins, water temps get too goofy, other params get off too much, or what it is, but i have noticed it twice now.

I use the germ killer version a rate of 1 ml per 50mls of water.

 

[penfold2]

For the species of AEFW infecting my acros, Bayer Complete Insect Killer may facilitate AEFW detachment, but it clearly has little to no insecticide activity against AEFW.

I don't think you can make that assertion based on an arbitrary dilution which is significantly less than that which corals can tolerate. I use Complete Insect Killer at a ~12:1 dilution (20mL per cup) for 15 minutes, and corals show good polyp extension and color just minutes after being returned to the tank. I haven't had AEFW, so you could be right about that for all I know, but I wouldn't rule out its effectiveness against them until you've tried a concentration nearing the safe limit for corals. The fact that a flatworm struggled but ultimately survived may just mean that you need a stronger dose.

 

[Bezz]

My experience with Imidacloprid.

I can't get Bayer in my country but I managed to get some concentrated Imidacloprid from a friend who use it for dipping SPS. I only use a few drops of Imidacloprid in a cup of tank water when dipping SPS and managed to eradicate AEFW and keep my tank free of pests for more than a year now.

A word of caution, Imidacloprid seems to kill everything on the SPS except the coral. I had all kinds of crabs, worms and pods fly out of new maricultured SPS when I dip them right after purchase.

Too bad Imidacloprid don't work on aiptasia

 

[penfold2]

My experience with Imidacloprid.

I can't get Bayer in my country but I managed to get some concentrated Imidacloprid from a friend who use it for dipping SPS. I only use a few drops of Imidacloprid in a cup of tank water when dipping SPS and managed to eradicate AEFW and keep my tank free of pests for more than a year now.

A word of caution, Imidacloprid seems to kill everything on the SPS except the coral. I had all kinds of crabs, worms and pods fly out of new maricultured SPS when I dip them right after purchase.

Too bad Imidacloprid don't work on aiptasia

Interesting. With your experience of Imidacloprid's effectiveness and flamron's experience of b-cyfluthrin's ineffectiveness, it would appear that Imidacloprid is the ingredient we want. Maybe we should be using one of Bayer's other products with 1.47% or 2.94% Imidacloprid (2-4 times stronger than the Complete Insect Killer most people are currently using), or even a commercial source of Imidacloprid if it can be easily obtained. If corals are injured by the other ingredients, or by the reduction in salinity from having to use so much product, then using a purer form may allow us to use a higher dose without affecting corals.

 

[thermoJoe]

I don't think you can make that assertion based on an arbitrary dilution which is significantly less than that which corals can tolerate....

Well, I wouldn't call it arbitrary. The suggested concentration for killing the host of insects the product is designed for specifies a 250:1 dilution. The concentration I used (50:1) is 5 times the recommended dose, and is on the high side based on surveying posts for when Bayer is used for AEFW infections. At a 12:1 dilution (~20 times the recommended concentration), it could even be "inert" ingredients that are affecting the AEFW, including things like altering salinity and pH, etc. I have even seen posts where people dipped coral in undiluted Bayer, and still reported the corals seemed fine.

It would be nice to find something that could really be called effective against AEFW.

 

[Chris Lakies]

Is there a "standard" protocol for Bayer dips?

I just did a 8 minute dip on my red dragon last night in a 5ml/1 cup ratio. This was to kill red bugs. The color if the acro looked faded for about 1 hour but then started to see polyps later and color came back. I will let you guys know how it looks when i get home.

For reference i used the below.

 

[penfold2]

Well, I wouldn't call it arbitrary. The suggested concentration for killing the host of insects the product is designed for specifies a 250:1 dilution.

That might be a good starting point, but the effective dose may end up being something entirely different. Imidacloprid is intended to be used as a systemic against insects, but we're using it as a topical against aquatic inverts. Different animals and different uptake pathway.

At a 12:1 dilution (~20 times the recommended concentration), it could even be "inert" ingredients that are affecting the AEFW, including things like altering salinity and pH, etc. I have even seen posts where people dipped coral in undiluted Bayer, and still reported the corals seemed fine.

This seems very doubtful. Quite a few people have reported eliminating AEFW with Bayer. If this were possible with a simple hyposaline or freshwater dip, I think that would have been discovered a long time ago.

It would be nice to find something that could really be called effective against AEFW.

There have been others reporting success at the concentration you used, but maybe this is a borderline dose and other variables can make the difference. I would really suggest trying a bigger dose before crossing this treatment off your list. Corals seem to be quite tolerant of larger doses.

 

[thermoJoe]

I would really suggest trying a bigger dose before crossing this treatment off your list. Corals seem to be quite tolerant of larger doses.

I will certainly give it a try, and I'm interested in seeing if the high concentration actually kills the AEFW or just enhances their detachment probability. I also have in the ready the other standard dips used for AEFW (Coral Rx, ReVive, and RPS All Out). I have also started dosing with Flatworm Stop + K-balance, just so I can keep everyone in business.

Interestingly, I either caught the AEFW infection early, or AEFW are having a hard time getting established in my tank. So far there is only one acro that had significant bit marks, and with two dips I have only been able to see two mature worms fall off. I have seen a few bite marks on one and may two other acros, but marks have not been increasing in number or size. I have yet to see eggs. However, it's only been about a week....

 

[EllisJuan]

Has anyone used this on coral attached to liverock? I have some Zoas I want to dip that are on a small piece of live rock. Would you just rinse it really well after the dip?

 

[Peter Eichler]

Has anyone used this on coral attached to liverock? I have some Zoas I want to dip that are on a small piece of live rock. Would you just rinse it really well after the dip?

Why would you dip zoas in bayer? I wouldn't suggest dipping rocks unless you do several rinses and transfers. Don't even think about it for a second if there's plant matter than can absorb the dip.

 

[EllisJuan]

Why would you dip zoas in bayer? I wouldn't suggest dipping rocks unless you do several rinses and transfers. Don't even think about it for a second if there's plant matter than can absorb the dip.

Because I want to get rid of these guys...