xtremereefer
New member
absolutc
what kind of ballast is used to run these M16?
Ted S
what kind of ballast is used to run these M16?
Ted S
Japanese tanks...(revived)
- Thread starter Skipper
- Start date
No ballast is required for these lights. A simple 20.00 HD track and housing is all that is needed. Runs off of regular 120v ac. House current.
There is also MH bulbs that are colored as well. They on the other hand work the same way as the standard MH you/we use now. They are just colored.
Stay tuned - in my search for the answers on these japanese lights, I might have picked up on a few things. Ill get back when I have more nfo.
There is also MH bulbs that are colored as well. They on the other hand work the same way as the standard MH you/we use now. They are just colored.
Stay tuned - in my search for the answers on these japanese lights, I might have picked up on a few things. Ill get back when I have more nfo.
africangrey
Active member
From the sound of it, this type light can't be used for SPS growth because they are filtered with low PAR values, however they can be used as supplemental lights along with MH to reflect pigmentation of SPS. But on the other hand those Japenese tanks do look too awesome if they are solely litted by M-16.
Absoultc, I can't wait on your research findings on these bulbs, like what color combination to use.
-A
Absoultc, I can't wait on your research findings on these bulbs, like what color combination to use.
-A
I think you should all check these sites out before we start changing out our lights again.
http://reef-kuki.com/Equip-meta1.html
http://reefaqua.com/tankdata.html
Check out his lighting arrangement
http://reef-kuki.com/Equip-meta1.html
http://reefaqua.com/tankdata.html
Check out his lighting arrangement
To clear up a few things -
The japanese tanks do not use MR-16 lights. These lights are solely for aeshetic puproses only. It is an alternative for us to use to get more dramatic color in our reefs. They provide no benefit to the tanks inhabitants.
The lights are made by Ushio. They have dichroic coating that is applied to the front cover glass of to provide deep color saturation. There is another version of this where the inside reflector surface is dichroic colored to provide color as well. Whether its as rich as the previous type, I do not know. There are no lenses or gels that make the colors. They run off the standard track lighting you can get at HD or Lowes. For now, it is an alternative.
In my search for the best and newest lighting - I have run across several japanese sites that have the lighting that has been shown in most - if not all the tanks posted in this thread. Until I gather all the information that I require (should be a few days) I am going to hold off before I say anything. I do this because I want to have my facts and findings in order. Just don't want to go off spouting things without some consensus and truth behind it.
I will say this - the japanese are way ahead of us. Perhaps leaps and bounds. I don't know yet. I just know they are on the right track and have found something that we have yet to look into. I will post more as soon as I get more info.
In the mean time - PLEASE take part in this research poll to further assist me. If anything just vote and answer the first few question, but if you have the time - complete it all!
http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=614977#post614977
Much appreciated!
Kris
The japanese tanks do not use MR-16 lights. These lights are solely for aeshetic puproses only. It is an alternative for us to use to get more dramatic color in our reefs. They provide no benefit to the tanks inhabitants.
The lights are made by Ushio. They have dichroic coating that is applied to the front cover glass of to provide deep color saturation. There is another version of this where the inside reflector surface is dichroic colored to provide color as well. Whether its as rich as the previous type, I do not know. There are no lenses or gels that make the colors. They run off the standard track lighting you can get at HD or Lowes. For now, it is an alternative.
In my search for the best and newest lighting - I have run across several japanese sites that have the lighting that has been shown in most - if not all the tanks posted in this thread. Until I gather all the information that I require (should be a few days) I am going to hold off before I say anything. I do this because I want to have my facts and findings in order. Just don't want to go off spouting things without some consensus and truth behind it.
I will say this - the japanese are way ahead of us. Perhaps leaps and bounds. I don't know yet. I just know they are on the right track and have found something that we have yet to look into. I will post more as soon as I get more info.
In the mean time - PLEASE take part in this research poll to further assist me. If anything just vote and answer the first few question, but if you have the time - complete it all!
http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=614977#post614977
Much appreciated!
Kris
dollarz81
New member
I just had to add my 2 cents here. Anyone remember when this hobby just began and the only people who kept SW tank were rich people? Remember what those tanks looked like, pure white either fake or dead coral, with a few fish. Those days you never saw a spot of algea, yet they never had these high-tech gadgets we have. Maybe it is possible to keep a tank as clean as some of the ones posted, just take alot of maintenance... since seening some of those tanks, i am going to strive to get my tank to look like those without putting any risk to its inhabitants. I just need to figure out how they do it!!!
ridetheducati
20 and Over Club
Use an algacide. Your tank will nice and clean.
Lighting Update
Lighting Update
Well - I have the poll going and hopefully I will get some more responses. In the meantime I am going to post what I have found thus far. Grab some popcorn!
First, as everyone knows - corals, as well as most all the inhabitants in our reefs need light to survive. They also need light to photosynthesize - make their food. Many of the corals that we house also use this light for coloration. They absorb a specific range of the spectrum and in return produce magnificant colors. Here is an article by Eric Borneman that might be of intrest.
http://www.aquarium.net/0397/0397_6.shtml
Most of you shoul be able to understand it
Now on to the nitty gritty. After looking at the magnificant eye candy the japanese are doing - I wanted to find out what they were using for light. The rich colors of blues, greens, reds, oranges and yellows are just superb. What do they know that we dont? Let alone, how are they doing it?
In all reality, its very simple. Look at the picture below. It was posted as a link previously -
As you can see there is not just 1 or 3 lights being used in this setup. There are several, 18 to be exact. Each of those lights has its own purpose and all the lights work together as a whole.
To break it down further, here is another picture that sheds some light on the matter.
My conclusions are not based on these pictures alone. However, it appears the japanese have taken reefing to a whole new level. Instead of running just a couple of lights that give 10/6.5k of spectrum, they appear to have broken down the spectrum in several catagories -
1 - Red,Yellow,Orange
2 - Green
3 - Blue
4 - Violet
There also appears to be a couple of other catagories that I can not make out at this moment. 1 appears to be similar to what we use - 10k metal halides - which fills in any gaps that are not covered in the breakdown catagories. I also want to point out that most of these lamps are low wattage. 23-50w per bulb. Their output is phenominal, which I beleive is due in part with the type of reflectors they use. Anyone familiar with the medium size heatlamps that hang from the ceiling? How well that light is pinpointed down? Basically thats what these housings appear to be. Just smaller and more refined.
Since the japanese have done this, they have an advanatge. They are able to give their corals exactly what they need in terms of light. They can move the lights to any desired location and have as many as they want without any heat problems due to this setup. As seen in the pictures, the results speak for themselves. Not only does it give the corals what they need, they are also creating truer, deeper colors with these lights. In the end, the coral is richer and more vibrant because of this. Now, I don't know everything on these lights, this is just what I have discovered thus far and made my most educated analysis.
Some of these tanks have been up for 2 years, some have been up 8 months. Now, not knowing all the infromation from the japanese side, I can tell you that in order for our tanks to even compare to their tanks, would take at least 1 year. Then again, its not even close. Yes, some of the tanks are for restraunt use, but the majority of tanks that I am talking about and have seen are other reefers like us.
Another additive with the setup of lights they have, there should be mininmal algae growth. The reason, since they have broken down the spectrum, they are able to remove that part of it or at least, take it down a notch. I think this would also explain why there is little to no algae in the tanks and maybe perhaps very little to no corraline. Again, this section is speculation. They could also be dedicated cleaners!
Now, when you look at an american tank what do you see? Blue/White light.. some yellow. As with most all tanks in the US there is that basic lighting setup. Metal Halide and or VHO. The problem I see is, we are not providing the most effective lighting that we can. Where as the japanese are. What were doing is taking our corals and putting them under a 6.5/10/12/20/50k spectrum and calling to done. Some of us suppliment that with more blue or white with the use of vho. There are quite a few tanks that have SPS and other corals where coloration is beautiful, but is it as deep and rich as our japanese friends? IMO - no, its not. Why, I beleive its lighting.
You can't put a group of corals under an umbrella of light that gives a little bit of each part of the spectrum and have amazing results. I also think to achieve somewhat deep color, the amount of light has to be increased to allow more of each part of the spectrum to get to the corals. In doing this, your creating alot of waste. Your producing excess light, using more energy than is needed and having a moderate impact on the requirements of those corals. Whereas again, if you break down the spectrum into different catagories - bulbs - you have the ability to provide your inhabitants with exactly what they need at a much higher percentage without the added addition of heat and power.
The by product of this arrangement is - a more robust coral - color saturation is much deeper and richer, along with the aesthetics of the tank itself. The colors are MUCH MORE profound.
Thats why I introduced the MR-16 bulbs. A way to introduce color and depth to our tanks, as a cheap alternative. It has no affect on the inhabitants. However, the japanese are doing the same thing, but their goal is to make their corals happy by providing the correct spectral light and it not only helps with the lighting, it gives the corals exactly what they need!
Please remember this is just my observation from the information that I have in front of me. It may be totally off the wall, or it may be very true. I believe it to be true. I am still trying to get more insight into this - so if anyone has anything they wish to add, lets hear it. I am also going to try and find out how I can get ahold of some of those bulbs, specifically, who makes then and if they are exported. Hopefully I will get some leads.
Well, thats most of it. Enjoy!
Lighting Update
Well - I have the poll going and hopefully I will get some more responses. In the meantime I am going to post what I have found thus far. Grab some popcorn!
First, as everyone knows - corals, as well as most all the inhabitants in our reefs need light to survive. They also need light to photosynthesize - make their food. Many of the corals that we house also use this light for coloration. They absorb a specific range of the spectrum and in return produce magnificant colors. Here is an article by Eric Borneman that might be of intrest.
http://www.aquarium.net/0397/0397_6.shtml
Most of you shoul be able to understand it
Now on to the nitty gritty. After looking at the magnificant eye candy the japanese are doing - I wanted to find out what they were using for light. The rich colors of blues, greens, reds, oranges and yellows are just superb. What do they know that we dont? Let alone, how are they doing it?In all reality, its very simple. Look at the picture below. It was posted as a link previously -
As you can see there is not just 1 or 3 lights being used in this setup. There are several, 18 to be exact. Each of those lights has its own purpose and all the lights work together as a whole.
To break it down further, here is another picture that sheds some light on the matter.
My conclusions are not based on these pictures alone. However, it appears the japanese have taken reefing to a whole new level. Instead of running just a couple of lights that give 10/6.5k of spectrum, they appear to have broken down the spectrum in several catagories -
1 - Red,Yellow,Orange
2 - Green
3 - Blue
4 - Violet
There also appears to be a couple of other catagories that I can not make out at this moment. 1 appears to be similar to what we use - 10k metal halides - which fills in any gaps that are not covered in the breakdown catagories. I also want to point out that most of these lamps are low wattage. 23-50w per bulb. Their output is phenominal, which I beleive is due in part with the type of reflectors they use. Anyone familiar with the medium size heatlamps that hang from the ceiling? How well that light is pinpointed down? Basically thats what these housings appear to be. Just smaller and more refined.
Since the japanese have done this, they have an advanatge. They are able to give their corals exactly what they need in terms of light. They can move the lights to any desired location and have as many as they want without any heat problems due to this setup. As seen in the pictures, the results speak for themselves. Not only does it give the corals what they need, they are also creating truer, deeper colors with these lights. In the end, the coral is richer and more vibrant because of this. Now, I don't know everything on these lights, this is just what I have discovered thus far and made my most educated analysis.
Some of these tanks have been up for 2 years, some have been up 8 months. Now, not knowing all the infromation from the japanese side, I can tell you that in order for our tanks to even compare to their tanks, would take at least 1 year. Then again, its not even close. Yes, some of the tanks are for restraunt use, but the majority of tanks that I am talking about and have seen are other reefers like us.
Another additive with the setup of lights they have, there should be mininmal algae growth. The reason, since they have broken down the spectrum, they are able to remove that part of it or at least, take it down a notch. I think this would also explain why there is little to no algae in the tanks and maybe perhaps very little to no corraline. Again, this section is speculation. They could also be dedicated cleaners!
Now, when you look at an american tank what do you see? Blue/White light.. some yellow. As with most all tanks in the US there is that basic lighting setup. Metal Halide and or VHO. The problem I see is, we are not providing the most effective lighting that we can. Where as the japanese are. What were doing is taking our corals and putting them under a 6.5/10/12/20/50k spectrum and calling to done. Some of us suppliment that with more blue or white with the use of vho. There are quite a few tanks that have SPS and other corals where coloration is beautiful, but is it as deep and rich as our japanese friends? IMO - no, its not. Why, I beleive its lighting.
You can't put a group of corals under an umbrella of light that gives a little bit of each part of the spectrum and have amazing results. I also think to achieve somewhat deep color, the amount of light has to be increased to allow more of each part of the spectrum to get to the corals. In doing this, your creating alot of waste. Your producing excess light, using more energy than is needed and having a moderate impact on the requirements of those corals. Whereas again, if you break down the spectrum into different catagories - bulbs - you have the ability to provide your inhabitants with exactly what they need at a much higher percentage without the added addition of heat and power.
The by product of this arrangement is - a more robust coral - color saturation is much deeper and richer, along with the aesthetics of the tank itself. The colors are MUCH MORE profound.
Thats why I introduced the MR-16 bulbs. A way to introduce color and depth to our tanks, as a cheap alternative. It has no affect on the inhabitants. However, the japanese are doing the same thing, but their goal is to make their corals happy by providing the correct spectral light and it not only helps with the lighting, it gives the corals exactly what they need!
Please remember this is just my observation from the information that I have in front of me. It may be totally off the wall, or it may be very true. I believe it to be true. I am still trying to get more insight into this - so if anyone has anything they wish to add, lets hear it. I am also going to try and find out how I can get ahold of some of those bulbs, specifically, who makes then and if they are exported. Hopefully I will get some leads.
Well, thats most of it. Enjoy!
FWIW I have watched the "Blue Lagoon" tank on the net for the last year or so via the pictures in the diary only (I dont read japanese ).
The 250w metal halides (250 "astro" in the above diagram) used dont seem to be anything special (other than perhaps better reflectors), he started out using mostly 10k bulbs in the 250's then seems to have replaced them with "25k" bulbs if I remember right - nothing astounding there, I see alot you US sps keepers are changing over to the radium blue bulbs from things like the 6500k saki.
The real interesting thing (as mentioned previously) is the use of coloured bulbs of various types to enhance the look of the coral, whats needed is some dialouge between english speaking reefkeepers and Japanese speaking reefers to see what their thinking is ref the specialised lighting they are using... anybody write Japanese
). The 250w metal halides (250 "astro" in the above diagram) used dont seem to be anything special (other than perhaps better reflectors), he started out using mostly 10k bulbs in the 250's then seems to have replaced them with "25k" bulbs if I remember right - nothing astounding there, I see alot you US sps keepers are changing over to the radium blue bulbs from things like the 6500k saki.
The real interesting thing (as mentioned previously) is the use of coloured bulbs of various types to enhance the look of the coral, whats needed is some dialouge between english speaking reefkeepers and Japanese speaking reefers to see what their thinking is ref the specialised lighting they are using... anybody write Japanese
Things you might want to consider before you go blow money on something useless:
1. The Japanese are notorious for killing corals and replacing them with new full grown heads of coral as reported by C. Delbeek on this issue in several forums. They also dye many of their corals to ensure they "glow" under HID spot lights.
2. Just because a tank has been running for 2+ years doesnt mean its inhabitants have been living in it for that long
3. They have not taken lighting to a whole new level or done anything to improve the corals habitat. There is ZERO evidence that these lights do ANYTHING other than make the tank look pretty to your eye. So before you go dropping cash on lights you think will supercharge your tank think again.
4. You also might want to read up on corals pigmentation and zooxanthellae and the useful ranges (nm) of light that are absorbed by them. There have been quite a few recently and lengthy discussions on various BB by those who have studied this in detail.
5. And how intense will a 50w HID really be when shining next to a 250W MH HID......
Enjoy - Responsibly!
1. The Japanese are notorious for killing corals and replacing them with new full grown heads of coral as reported by C. Delbeek on this issue in several forums. They also dye many of their corals to ensure they "glow" under HID spot lights.
2. Just because a tank has been running for 2+ years doesnt mean its inhabitants have been living in it for that long
3. They have not taken lighting to a whole new level or done anything to improve the corals habitat. There is ZERO evidence that these lights do ANYTHING other than make the tank look pretty to your eye. So before you go dropping cash on lights you think will supercharge your tank think again.
4. You also might want to read up on corals pigmentation and zooxanthellae and the useful ranges (nm) of light that are absorbed by them. There have been quite a few recently and lengthy discussions on various BB by those who have studied this in detail.
5. And how intense will a 50w HID really be when shining next to a 250W MH HID......
Enjoy - Responsibly!
This may be true, it is also true here in the states. However, there has to be something they know that we don't.
Again, this is true - however without an interpretation of the websites from japanese to english or something, we can only speculate and make the best judgments with the nfo at hand.
How do you know they havent? Do you speak and read japanese fluently? Do you live over ther? Show me something that states there is no difference in their lighting and ours and that what they are doing is just for cosmetics. The only way we can "think again" is through discussion - as we are doing now. Somone has to get things rolling. Want to lend a hand?
I have "brushed" up on that topic and also noticed that they are still unsure of what really causes pigmentation in spesific corals. There is insight and information on what IT MAY be, but there is no hard evidence into the matter. Unless it is fact, there is always room for more research and improvement. Also, isnt science a trial and error thing? We wouldnt be where we are today without research, trials, errors and experiences. What possible harm could happen if somone/anyone tries the lighting the japanese use? If it turns out to be a total blunder, you loose a few bucks and possibly some corals. If it turns out to be the best thing you have ever done, your one step ahead of the game.
I don't know - have you ever tried it? Or even looked into it? Do you know something that I don't? I have spent the last 12 hours researching and trying desprately to unravel this lighting issue. I do it for a few reasons. Mainly to bring new techniques into our hobby, whether they improve the quality of life for our creatures or just to give us something more appealing to look at. Either way, its a win win situation. The question is, how much are you willing to risk? Time, money and energy are just a small piece of the ever growing puzzle.
I wouldnt mind spending money to see if something works. Or just to prove someone or something wrong. You will NEVER know until you try.
I hold true to a belief - You can read all the books you want and become as certified as you can.. however, you can still be dumb as a rock. There is no substitute for hands on and experience. None of which I'm affraid, are available in a book.
Kris
organicreefer
In Memoriam
absolutc said:
you got that exactly backwards
my brother is staioned in japan (he is in the airforce).he asked the only person he knows with a tank -and confirmed for me that the japanese do setup tanks just for competitions.....and the majority of the tanks posted (cpfarms in particular) seem pretty suspicious to me.
when i tyranslated the cp farms website-though the translation was lacking-it seemed like they were using ideas taken from "wester" aquaria-alot of berlin setups etc..
Ok againt my better judgement ill respond:
1. No the US reefer does not typically dye the corals. We may import them that way but the most common coral imported dyed are soft. US reefers dont tend to go home and dye their sps for display nor do most LFS- im not aware of ANY LFS dying corals once received from the importer/wholesaler.
Yes we do replace whole heads but again the Japanese do it as a SOP way of maintaining their reefs not as a way of simple replacement. You can search Google for delbeeks and others first had accounts on Japanese tanks and what they saw.
2. The lack of information doesn't mean all is ok it means you should look to existing information thats been repeatedly tested and verified. The "taken on faith arguement" based on few www sites is not very sound.
3.So because you see some photochoped photos with intense colors they must be doing something right? Nevermind that others have reported mass deaths hence the high importation rates for SPS corals to japan. Nevermind there is again no evidence to support using HID colored lights for anything other than impressing your friends?
And no this isnt rethinking this is acting without thinking and without regard to the scientific data todate to have a "neato" looking tank without having any factual information to base the need on. And if you notice there are almost always Large wattage MH lamps that are the PRIMARY source of light as a 50 w super red will in no way outshine a 250 AB light...the physics tell me so...
4. They are quite sure what wavelengths of light zooxanthelle respond to and what occurs when other bands of light are used. They are uncertain as to why some corals protiens retain intence coloration and others dont ...there are questions as to how corals adapt and at what rate. There are still debates as to intensity vs spectrum.
Again your arguement that the abscence of data some how makes you right is comical especially when there are dozens of papers on the issue that does expain pigmentation and coloration. The issue isnt that coral have coloration but why and what triggers it. The information cited by Borneman and presented most recently Steve Tyree on #Reefs explains much of what we see going on in the corals. The transcript of ST's discussion can be found on Reefs.org. Also a very detailed discusion on photosynthesis recently was discussed on USENET: Rec. aquaria.marine.reefs.
Also there were recent discussion on pigmentation and coral bleaching on coralreefs-list. As well as studies up the wazoo on this very subject. So again the absence of scientific data on colored HID lights doesn't make it so....
And unless your going to do rigorous photometrics of the light and its effects on the corals your "testing" amounts to nothing more than anecdotal ..especially given the photometrics that exist today with MH lamps and their effects on corals.,
so do whatever.... spend your money to make your tank look cool .... the rest of us poor slobs will continue with our wildly successful tanks "the old fashion way" with poor ol actinic lighting methods..... so do what you think you must but I urge you to tread cautiously and carefully before investing any money into these lights for anything other than onamental lighting.
1. No the US reefer does not typically dye the corals. We may import them that way but the most common coral imported dyed are soft. US reefers dont tend to go home and dye their sps for display nor do most LFS- im not aware of ANY LFS dying corals once received from the importer/wholesaler.
Yes we do replace whole heads but again the Japanese do it as a SOP way of maintaining their reefs not as a way of simple replacement. You can search Google for delbeeks and others first had accounts on Japanese tanks and what they saw.
2. The lack of information doesn't mean all is ok it means you should look to existing information thats been repeatedly tested and verified. The "taken on faith arguement" based on few www sites is not very sound.
3.So because you see some photochoped photos with intense colors they must be doing something right? Nevermind that others have reported mass deaths hence the high importation rates for SPS corals to japan. Nevermind there is again no evidence to support using HID colored lights for anything other than impressing your friends?
And no this isnt rethinking this is acting without thinking and without regard to the scientific data todate to have a "neato" looking tank without having any factual information to base the need on. And if you notice there are almost always Large wattage MH lamps that are the PRIMARY source of light as a 50 w super red will in no way outshine a 250 AB light...the physics tell me so...
4. They are quite sure what wavelengths of light zooxanthelle respond to and what occurs when other bands of light are used. They are uncertain as to why some corals protiens retain intence coloration and others dont ...there are questions as to how corals adapt and at what rate. There are still debates as to intensity vs spectrum.
Again your arguement that the abscence of data some how makes you right is comical especially when there are dozens of papers on the issue that does expain pigmentation and coloration. The issue isnt that coral have coloration but why and what triggers it. The information cited by Borneman and presented most recently Steve Tyree on #Reefs explains much of what we see going on in the corals. The transcript of ST's discussion can be found on Reefs.org. Also a very detailed discusion on photosynthesis recently was discussed on USENET: Rec. aquaria.marine.reefs.
Also there were recent discussion on pigmentation and coral bleaching on coralreefs-list. As well as studies up the wazoo on this very subject. So again the absence of scientific data on colored HID lights doesn't make it so....
And unless your going to do rigorous photometrics of the light and its effects on the corals your "testing" amounts to nothing more than anecdotal ..especially given the photometrics that exist today with MH lamps and their effects on corals.,
so do whatever.... spend your money to make your tank look cool .... the rest of us poor slobs will continue with our wildly successful tanks "the old fashion way" with poor ol actinic lighting methods..... so do what you think you must but I urge you to tread cautiously and carefully before investing any money into these lights for anything other than onamental lighting.
