JBNY's 270 Ver2.0
- Thread starter JB NY
- Start date
JB NY
Active member
A few more
This is another one that was all burnt up and has recovered really well, it's all deformed where it grew over the burnt tips but it give it a cool look now.
SSC coloring up too!
I don't normally post polyp extension pics because the fish in the DT tank keep the polyps from fully extending, but I do not have any fish in the frag tank so the acros can really open up, here is a Sarmentosa with polyps out!
This is another one that was all burnt up and has recovered really well, it's all deformed where it grew over the burnt tips but it give it a cool look now.
SSC coloring up too!
I don't normally post polyp extension pics because the fish in the DT tank keep the polyps from fully extending, but I do not have any fish in the frag tank so the acros can really open up, here is a Sarmentosa with polyps out!
watchguy123
New member
Awesome colors and great photographs.
JB NY
Active member
That is the original SSC.
Good coloursI really like that peach coloured one with red polyps
Thanks, me too!
Thanks, colors are really starting to pop! If I can get my hand to be more steady, or pull a tripod out I should be able to get some clearer shots.
JB NY
Active member
I don't have them on long enough for them to do anything other than a little pop.
Mine are only on for about three hours at the end of the day and only at 35%, the last hour they are at 1% to create a dusk effect, so for me they make no difference in color.
I am back using algea scrubber ( turbo aquatics) , had some TN at the base on some corals using Rowa
With your ARID reactor do you dose any NO3 to keep balance between N and P?
Use to have a problems where my N was 0 and P at 0.07 and some corals mainly red colors were looking faded..
With your ARID reactor do you dose any NO3 to keep balance between N and P?
Use to have a problems where my N was 0 and P at 0.07 and some corals mainly red colors were looking faded..
JB NY
Active member
I am back using algea scrubber ( turbo aquatics) , had some TN at the base on some corals using Rowa
With your ARID reactor do you dose any NO3 to keep balance between N and P?
Use to have a problems where my N was 0 and P at 0.07 and some corals mainly red colors were looking faded..
I am dosing about 0.6 ppm of Nitrates a day into the tank. This is keeping NO3 at 5 ppm and PO4 around 0.05 ppm
reefmutt
Active member
Joe, the recovery in those corals is really fantastic..
With all the discussion of manganese and zinc.. And trace additives in general, can you list (again) what you are adding?
From Matt and Andrew, there has been a lot of talk about dosing zinc and manganese (micro E or Koralcolor or Trace Hard.. Or individual mn and zinc..) to reduce zoox in the corals and bring out colors in the sps..
I'm just wondering where you are at with dosing, considering you employ macro algea in your nutrient reduction strategy..
With all the discussion of manganese and zinc.. And trace additives in general, can you list (again) what you are adding?
From Matt and Andrew, there has been a lot of talk about dosing zinc and manganese (micro E or Koralcolor or Trace Hard.. Or individual mn and zinc..) to reduce zoox in the corals and bring out colors in the sps..
I'm just wondering where you are at with dosing, considering you employ macro algea in your nutrient reduction strategy..
JB NY
Active member
Point taken
have you try to run small amount of GFO to lower P or you think 0.05 is a good point?
Do you dose kno3 or CaNo3?
Thank you
0.05 for P is fine IMO. It will go down further as time goes on, I was playing with N dosing a few weeks ago and let my nitrates fall under 2 ppm for a while and the P started to rise. I started nitrate dosing again when the P got to 0.07, now that I have raised N a little P is slowly started to fall.
I dose KN03
I use the Triton Base 4 Part Solution. which is Alk/Ca/Mg/Trace Elements
In addition I dose.
Zinc weekly
Iodine weekly
Manganese Daily
Nitrates Daily
Acropower Daily
I think that the Zn and Mn help tremulously, but I am not sure I agree that it is reducing the zoox as much as it is keeping the coral healthy which in turn leads to the color.
I've read the papers that are posted and I haven't seen anything that show low Fe and high Mn lead to less zoox.
The only thing that I have found on what Andrew is doing is he is adding Koralcolor, which also contains Cobalt, and I was able to find some research that shows that higher levels of Co leads to increases photosynthesis, that might manifest itself in some zoox lightening in appearance.
So here are some theories on what is going on with Fe/Mn/Zn. This is mostly taken from this paper that was posted in Matt's thread.
Effects of Trace Metal Concentrations on the Growth of the Coral Endosymbiont Symbiodinium kawagutii
From the article
"The intracellular quotas for Cu, Zn, and Mn increased with decreasing Fe′ implying that cells subjected to lower Fe′ status offset the shortage of Fe supply by assimilating greater amounts of Cu, Zn, and Mn."
Most of us do not add Iron (Fe) to our SPS tanks. Eventually low Fe leads to acros needing and using more Mn and Zn than normal, this depletes Mn and Zn levels in our tanks over time.
"that deficiency of either Cu or Zn or the compounded effect of low supply of both metals in the growth medium, result in conditions that were not amenable for S. kawagutii."
"our results indicate that low-metal availability in its natural habitat subjects Symbiodinium to unfavorable conditions that hinder its growth and compromise its capacity to cope with mounting environmental stressors"
"Our results show that Symbiodinium may flourish freely in an environment with ample supply of Fe, Cu, Zn, and Mn but its growth will be hampered in an environment lacking these metals."
So over time low levels Fe with with sufficient levels of Zn/Mn or worse, low levels of Fe and low levels of Zn/Mn cause issues with the zoox that can lead to poor growth/color or worse bleaching.
Few of us add Iron, and almost none of us add Zn or Mn, maybe that is some of the secret as to why some have success and other don't, why some products work for some while for others they see nothing. Each tank is different in that the corals we keep might have different requirements. I think that there is something definitely here, we just need to uncover a bit more.
mhucasey
Acros & wieners, oh my!
This is what I focused on:
In growth media with Cu, Zn, Mn, and varying Fe concentrations, we observed that Cu, Zn, and Mn cellular quotas were inversely related to Fe concentrations. In the absence of Cu, Zn, and Mn, growth rates increased with increasing inorganic Fe concentrations up to 1250 pM, indicating the relatively high Fe requirement for Symbiodinium growth and potential functional complementarity of these metals.
To summarize, Zn, Cu, and Mn displace Fe and slow growth rates of Symbiodinium(Zooxanthellae). If you remove Zn, Cu, and Mn, Iron drives growth of Zooxanthellae up. More algal density in coral tissue = less colorful coral. Iron enters the system in a number of ways, from GFO, Zeolites, AIO pellets, Foods, Supplements, etc.
JB NY
Active member
Interesting, I did not take that same conclusion, just to opposite. They found the cell quotas were inversely related, meaning that as concentrations of Cu/ZN, Mn went down, zooxanthellae needed more Fe to sustain growth.
From further in the study that state clearly
"Among the three treatments, growth conditions without Cu/Zn and Mn resulted in significantly lower growth rates compared to that in the control"
So if you want less algal density in the coral tissue you need to hold back Cu/Zn, and Mn not add more.
Further "Between low Cu/Zn or low Mn availability, growth of the zooxanthellae was influenced more by Cu/Zn availability as reflected by both lower growth rate and lower maximum biomass"
Low Zn is more important than low Mn for zooxanthellae growth rates.
Later in the study they state as well.
"Among all treatments, low Cu/Zn treatments resulted in marked differences in terms of maximum biomass and growth rates achieved, either independently or paired with low Ni or low Mn."
as well as
"Another remarkable observation in the low Cu/Zn treatments would be the elevated Mn, Fe, and Co quotas, which imply that cells increased uptake of these metals to compensate for low Cu/Zn availability."
So as I wrote earlier, I think that if the goal is to try and use Mn and Zn to lower the growth of zooxanthellae inside the coral, this study shows that a lack of those elements is what causes this. But they also state that this adds stress to the coral.
I think that the use of Zn and Mn are correct though for what we are both trying to achieve, I just think that is happening for different reasons.
Acronic
The Fifth Master
I believe this is just a small piece of the puzzle. The trace metal discussion is great in that I feel like we are starting to understand the nutrition aspect of it all. I think, however, that we must start to include oxygen into the equation. Specifically how it reacts with flavoprotiens and the associated oxidative stress responses of the host to gain a more in depth understanding. I feel that oxygen is the premise that will link a path between all of this. *follow the O2*
reefmutt
Active member
How do you manipulate 02 levels?
Joe mentions above research stating that cobalt additives increase photosynthesis.. This would increase o2...
Kevin, I am no biologist.. Can you elaborate a bit?
Are you suggesting that maybe corals have low oxygen levels in captivity? Too much?
I guess photo inhibition we see in some corals would suggest excess o2 and thus bleaching?
Perhaps better levels of mn, zn and co better aid corals in the regulation of oxygen?
Joe mentions above research stating that cobalt additives increase photosynthesis.. This would increase o2...
Kevin, I am no biologist.. Can you elaborate a bit?
Are you suggesting that maybe corals have low oxygen levels in captivity? Too much?
I guess photo inhibition we see in some corals would suggest excess o2 and thus bleaching?
Perhaps better levels of mn, zn and co better aid corals in the regulation of oxygen?
Acronic
The Fifth Master
I'm not suggesting we control O2. Just that we should use it as the link between understanding the processes occurring when adding these trace metals (especially since the end goal seems to be better colour)
The trace metals will aid in reducing oxidative stress.
And yes I do believe there are, at least, stints of localized hypoxia occurring in our aquariums. What this means exactly, I don't know. Lots of possibilities.
The trace metals will aid in reducing oxidative stress.
And yes I do believe there are, at least, stints of localized hypoxia occurring in our aquariums. What this means exactly, I don't know. Lots of possibilities.
JB NY
Active member
From this information on Cobalt.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/asset?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0122898.PDF
Not sure if it fits in with with your thoughts on O2 level changes close to or within the coral itself. But interesting nonetheless.
Most significant to us I think is this section when the corals are subjected to enriched levels of Cobalt "S. pistillata and A. muricata (ranging from 0.6 to 0.7), exposed to an ecologically relevant enrichment in cobalt (0.2 ìg L-1), revealed that their photosynthetic processes were stimulated by such moderate cobalt input and were operating at their maximum capacity. Rather, this moderate cobalt concentration stimulates the rETRmax values in S. pistillata and A. muricata. On the other hand, their zooxanthellae concentrations did not change, suggesting that, unlike iron, cobalt addition did not stimulate symbiont densities but would rather stimulate the photosynthetic efficiency of these algal cells."
Basically elevated levels of Cobalt caused the coral's (acropora being studied for once!) photosynthetic processes to run at their maximum capacity. But that this did NOT cause zooxanthellae concentrations to change. So no lightening or darkening of tissue.
They propose two theories..
"Two hypotheses may explain this stimulation: (i) as cobalt is a cofactor of the carbonic anhydrase, an additional input would stimulate this enzyme and would bring additional inorganic carbon to the photosynthetic process; (ii) as coral gastric activity harbors a bacterial community able to produce the B12 vitamin, named cobalamin (due to its cobalt core), an enhancement of this vitamin production could stimulate the photosynthetic process."
Both interesting ideas.
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