Karim's 1500gal dream reef

open to ideas on the base too. I haven't run a budget on it yet, but it's a beast too

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but 2x4s are relatively cheap.

2x4 at 12' lengths ~ $5.50
2x4 pressure treated at 8' ~ $3.50
4'x8' sheets of 3/4" plywood ~ $36 (yellow pine), $47 (whitewood), $53 HPVA (Maple, Oak)
 
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going to try a plywood sump again...

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DIY forum has the thread to discuss it, but I thought I'd post it here too.
 
I'd say go for the concrete sump. Would you ever need to move/remove it? I doubt it. If you do, it's because you're leaving the house or tearing down the entire system. So no big deal. If you make a wood sump and then have to move it for some reason, there's no way you can do it without taking it apart and rebuilding I'm sure. Watch how King of DIY built his concrete tank... I would assume you could take a similar approach, minus the viewing panels.
 
Putting rebar into the slab is what stopped me (again).

Things change during a build and flexibility to adapt is key for success IMO.

At one point, I had the sump in the slab! Basically, I made that section 24" deeper and followed the concrete structure down... the guys that pour concrete had a field day quoting me! It was $5k more... over the original $18k.

So - flat slab, no rebar.

I could still go concrete with forms and corner rebar, but if I'm doing that much woodwork to pour concrete, I might as well just epoxy the plywood and be done with it.

For the long sides or edges, I could use concrete block epoxied to the slab. Basically, I'm using the concrete to push back against any bulging.
 
The big sump is bigger than 2x king bed...

I'm thinking I can put a floating bed or two and rock gently in the waves from the surge. Margarita in one hand.

Or I can put those sharks I've always thought about. Just add thin plastic bands to curve the ends....

At 20" deep- maybe it's just a kiddie pool? But it's inside a dark garage... so kinda creepy.

It's just massive - makes me think bad thoughts about what else I can do with my lagoon-sump.
 
It's just massive - makes me think bad thoughts about what else I can do with my lagoon-sump.

At least you already know one option. Dream bar-side lagoon tank...

Since I'm posting in your thread anyway, just want to say your design and development process and diagrams are amazing and I'm still watching the process and still can't wait to see this come together.

I'm particularly enthused by your growth-optimized coral layout... I tried placing my corals conservatively distanced when I installed them in my 29g biocube, assuming I wouldn't be in NYC for long. Now I've just got a pile of SPS growing on top and through one another anywhere where there is light. I don't think a single medium or large sized demonstration colony of yours would fit in my tank at all.
 
Thanks RW.

When I started looking at how to do this scientifically, I realized that it's like growing crops or trees. The difference is that we're planting bushes, trees, shrubs, flowers, melons and potatoes in the same fields.

When you look at a reef from above, they form very geometric outcroppings to capture light and anything below needs to just make do with less. So, it's basically the "canopy" and "forest floor" view.

So I started drawing circles that frame the potential seating arrangement of different corals. That seating then needs to be staged in height so that the flow doesn't get obstructed. Once that's done, I need the least intrusive, most open, rock support structure to support the "seating".

I'm still working on it, and I'd like to make the branches able to swivel & stretch so I can always adjust later, but that's still a ways off.

The exciting part is moving away from the chaotic rock placement effort where corals have to accept my poor but pretty structures, to a more mathematical layout process that focuses on coral first and rock second.

To highlight the problem... in my current 27" deep tank, I built a beautiful tree structure with a top at 20" for coral placement... three years later, I'm constantly ripping the dead corals from that top because the growth rate quickly pushes them out of the water.

It's beautiful but not coral friendly.
 
added 1" square stainless steel tube around the perimeter

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Ok. Got a bunch of questions offline. I'll post first and then respond:

Just watched the video. I'm glad the HX tubes are no longer under the structure. Unsure on the stand's structure/likelihood of staying level, and honestly a bit concerned about thinking too much about it. Like the uniseals. Unsure about the concrete. Not sure what it does in salt water (any leaching concrerns?). Did you get rid of the height changing overflow box? For surges what about tubes with flapper valves that pull from a sump and dump to the tank? Not enough volume?

The barrels being that high seem like an issue for pulling the vacuum (harder as higher, although you get more pressure as well). Why three sinks? Would be cool if you could have a full size sunlit mangrove. I'll bet you end up trying to grow coral in the outdoor fuge section, but that's just a guess on my part.
 
I'm glad the HX tubes are no longer under the structure.
I agree. I decided the remove the enclosing structure around the heat exchanger tubes, but reduced the risk of catastrophic irreparable failure by moving it from underneath the slab.

Unsure on the stand's structure/likelihood of staying level, and honestly a bit concerned about thinking too much about it. Like the uniseals.
Went through some permutations of the stand with more support wood and a more solid framing.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2650902&page=2
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I would think that the trick in leveling it is in having the slab be as level as possible or pouring a thin layer of leveling concrete under the treated wood to ensure that it is. The rest should be based on the wood-cutting?
The uniseals I actually have a lot of confidence in. I've been using them and they've been solid so far.

Unsure about the concrete. Not sure what it does in salt water (any leaching concerns?).
No worries. My entire tank today is concrete and my learning is to cure it with heavy aeration long enough or accelerate the leaching with Lanthanum. Public aquariums use concrete so I'm not too worried.

Did you get rid of the height changing overflow box?
No. It's under the acrylic overflow box. That structure is small, but includes the air cavity to create buoyancy + the PVC extenders to actuate the height level + filament line to drive the actuation. That's why there's a glass "overflow guide" box with a little escape hatch at the bottom, and then the acrylic overflow that actually connects to the plumbing. I'm still thinking both tidal and surge effects.

For surges what about tubes with flapper valves that pull from a sump and dump to the tank? Not enough volume?
Actually the tank will have the option for a number of surge mechanisms. Some controlled and some uncontrolled/pseudo-passive. The controlled surge would be the vacuum chambers where one side is pressurized and the other vacuumed so that the flow of air drives the surge/countersurge without any flow going into the sump. This is still to be proven effective. The uncontrolled surge is basically allowing normal air pressure to release into the vacuum chambers which would release a massive volume of water into the tank... and the sump would need to absorb all that! .... which it's designed to do.
Also, the normal "raised fuge" returns are actuated, so they can operate in normal return flow mode, or opened wide to create multi-directional surges.

The barrels being that high seem like an issue for pulling the vacuum (harder as higher, although you get more pressure as well).
I think you're talking about the rear surge chambers (cylinders). They're actually not that high. The tops only about 36" above DT water level and the bottom is close to the DT floor. The tank is 27" high and the chambers basically occupy that same height + 3' above... Lifting 2' is not a problem and that's probably where most of the operation will be. The last foot is to experiment with high power vacuums later.

Why three sinks?
I have one sink now and I just WISH I had three. One for dirty work - chemicals, etc... One for normal work (tap water) for washing things... and one with saltwater for living work. This is for scrubbing rock or removing pests... or just anything that you'd do in your aquarium, but wouldn't it more convenient in a sink that you can just unplug and drain? That's why there are three taps too with three kinds of water.. tap water, RODI water, and saltwater.

Would be cool if you could have a full size sunlit mangrove.
I've actually thought about it... but that would require significant real estate with the "root structure" protected from the elements. Of course, having it in the garden means that that kind of expansion is technically possible...

I'll bet you end up trying to grow coral in the outdoor fuge section, but that's just a guess on my part.
Well.. If history is a predictor of future activity... my corals find their way into all kinds of spaces. My current fuge became my "waste bin" for unhealthy, misbehaving or bad coral.. and a few polyps turned into a second coral fuge... which I now regret. I'm certainly not going to allow xenia or palys in my display tank again... but maybe experiment with zoas or GSP in a controlled zone. No idea - it's a gamble.
 
Karim,
I don't know why I have not being gewtting notices from this thread, but I am subscribed.
The last time we talked, I think that I recommended an efficient heat pump with a titanium heat erxchanger.

How are you creating passive flow of air from top of structure to remove moist air?
 
There's an air intake at the top of the structure that pushes the air down into the geothermal air ducting 10' down. That cools the air with a trap at the end before the colder air is returned up into the sunroom.

The build video shows the thermal piping at ~ 1:13

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/z00RZimQGks" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

The top middle windows also open to passively release hot air.

I have a chiller for the water, and room for an HVAC for the room (if all else fails).
 
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Ok. The moving has begun. Here's the transition build thread

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=25235054#post25235054

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Karim,

Forgive me if you already covered this. Considering the amount of heat gain with mid day sun, there is no way to be economical about cooling the water. I used the large capacity of the Big Tank to dampen temperature swings. You could do underground water storage which would be expensive up front with no real cost to operate but a circulating pump. This would give you system temperature dampening due to both increased volume and geothermal dampening.

One other option would be to have an outside salt water wading pool with spray nozzles to optimize evaporative cooling. A surface skimmer would be required to remove pollen and dust. Or you could go with a 20K gallon swimming pool.

As an illustration of heat gain, today the temperature swing on 2’ deep Rubbermade tanks buried in the ground was 12 degrees getting up to 88 degrees, I don’t consider that temperature lethal for what I am doing. Growing pods and utilitarian macro. However, when I did cure live rock and grow coral for a short term, using 20” box fans blowing perpendicular to water surface maintained 82 degrees during 105 degree weather.
 
My ideal water temperature is 82-84F. Air temperature ~ 79F with good airflow.

The sump is a massive 1500 gallon continuous tank in the back room (dark) that's 13' x 8' x 2'... the surface is agitated with air injectors and blowers/fan will blow external air down the long length. The idea is to use the drier air in mid-summer to cool the sump.

The sump is also sitting directly on the concrete slab to get some earth cooling.

The water circulates down 10' into a geothermal run of pipes to cool.. I do the same with the air through a blower.

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the buried pipes are a little obscured in that image with the large ATS greenhouse that is still in concept.

The biggest concern is with the humidity of the external air, especially in the damper times of the year like spring and fall.
 
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the water lines are 2 x 12' runs of 3" PVC with 25 x 8' cross-runs of 2" PVC each.
So that's 50 x 8' of 2" PVC buried about 10' down ~ 210 sqft of heat exchange surface.

The air lines are 20' runs of 6" PVC with 10 x 12' cross runs of 4" PVC each.
So that's 10 x 12' of 4" PVC buried about 10' down too ~ 126 sqft of surface.

The idea is to use a controller to sense the temperature and humidity inside and outside. Sunroom, backroom, outside ... the controller determines which air is best (based on wet bulb/dry bulb) to circulate through the ground loops. So, the coolest driest air circulates down and is pumped back in. The separate returns can also be controlled so the sunroom may be closed loop while the garage door in the backroom is open to allow fresh air in directly.

To address the excess humidity, there will be a gravel catch at the bottom of the return pipe so condensation slides down the pipe.

There will still be more humidity in the air, so one idea is to add an air conditioner condenser coils at the air return to locally cool the air to condensation before being allowed into the rooms.
 
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Very impressive.

When earth coupled heat pumps were introduced, Ft Polk civil engineers determined that 100’ of 2” water well equated to 1 ton of air conditioning, it was with groundwater coming within 30’ of the surface. When tubes were put into dry ground, the earth acted as an insulator.
 
Thanks. I still don't know for sure how effective it will be. If 100' ~ 1ton then 400' ~ 4 ton ~ 15kW of cooling.

I'm assuming that the earth is 78F at 10' down, so the return air should be at 78F

The incoming air is 100F 80% humidity.

The solar radiation is 277 BTU/sqft/hr and maybe 85% of it will get through on the 500sqft of sunroom

https://www.slideshare.net/snewman7118/pro-green-2012-vfd-fans

That's 118K BTU/hr = 35kW!
 
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The evaporation will remove about 1060 BTU per pound of water evaporated... I'm expecting an evaporation rate of about 80-100 gallons per day, so that should be 640 pounds of water or 680K BTU/day ~ 28K BTU/hr ~ 8.3KW.

So even with all this, I'm only around 23KW.. so 12KW short. That would still need a 3.5 tonne AC unit.

The last loop is the air cooling loop... I haven't gotten the math for that done yet. I'm hoping it'll close the gap enough... but this is a hard problem to solve.
 
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