Landlords Log - Breeding Tomato Clowns

[landlord]

Quick Update

Batch II - Day 22

Well you can tell that they're tomato clowns. Lots of agression! Many have taken together in small juvenile groups. Reminds me of high school (jocks, smokers, band kids, etc), plus a couple of bad apples mixing it up amongst the groups. I did start them on Oto B2 yesterday afternoon. They seems lazy with it at first, just sort of knocking it around. Eventually the bugger realized the needed to open their mouths a little bit wider and then things were fine. I added a 2 man CuC to this tank since I am quite certain that I am overfeeding. With a white sandy bottom it is quite easy to see the leftovers in the sandbed.

Batch III - Day 11

(Why no pictures, you say???? Scroll up, nothing look-wise has changed. )

I can visibly see many of these guys eating Oto A. It is also easy to see it in their bellies. I am losing a dozen or two fry a day still. Many of them simply ride the current like zombies without making much effort to swim. No stripes are noticeable yet. I've learned some lessons from this large hatch for sure. There is just no sense in me trying to raise a full hatch (400-500).

My rationale - Why underfeed 400 fry to eventually end up with 100 poorly nourished ones, stunted in their development. When you can start with 100, retain a good greenwater culture to constantly feed them, and get them to size in a timely manner.

With Batch II (50 fry after the big die-off on day 1) I had a self sustaining greenwarter culture. I never had to add any rotifers to the larval tank. Everyone ate well and developed quickly. Seems like a better way to keep the cycle moving forward to get them "To Market" quicker.

Batch IV - Hatching tonight!

I am going to go for this in a reduced fashion. I am going to gather as many of these guys as I can from the DT and simply move 100 of the most vigorous swimmers to the new larval tank I have been preparing. The greenwater rot culture currently in the larval tank is thickening nicely and I believe that I can be more successful. Stay Tuned for more.....

Thanks for reading, hope you are getting something out of this.

Kurt

 

[rEd86]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14867456#post14867456 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by landlord
I've learned some lessons from this large hatch for sure. There is just no sense in me trying to raise a full hatch (400-500).

My rationale - Why underfeed 400 fry to eventually end up with 100 poorly nourished ones, stunted in their development. When you can start with 100, retain a good greenwater culture to constantly feed them, and get them to size in a timely manner.

Kurt,

I would wait for validation from the experts here, but I don't think selectively weaning out fry in the early process would work. I think this is a natural selection process that you have to go through. The strong will survive and find the food, the weak will not be able to find food as easily and some will die.

How will you be able to identify what fry are the strong ones and which ones are the weak ones? This is biological and not necessarily due to food. I would fear you'd throw out some of the strong ones and keep the weak ones and so even though you start with 100, you'd still loose a lot since the weak were likely to die anyway.

Once again, I haven't started breeding yet so this doesn't come from real-world experience, just following what the group is doing here. If anything, you might want to lower the water levels so there is not as much "searching" for food. That and a solid food supply would probably resolve the problem.

You are doing a fantastic job given how long you've been doing this so don't get to discouraged or try to change things yet.

--Ed

 

[landlord]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14867664#post14867664 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rEd86
How will you be able to identify what fry are the strong ones and which ones are the weak ones?

--Ed

After I siphon them there is usually some physical damage. This manifests itself in the form of fry hanging around the bottom of the collection bucket. Those swimming near the surface of the collection bucket will most likely be the ones with less damage. Of course, this could all be speculation on my part.

The issue with putting them all in is that they quickly consume all the rotifers, therefore I am unable to maintain a population of rotifers in the larval tank using "greenwater method", exactly the case I am dealing with right now on Batch III. Once the rotifers were all eaten up I could not repopulate them quick enough to keep all the mouths fed and thus they are all slowly dying off or simply developing too slow for me.

Glad your're following along with my ramblings, it is appreciated

Kurt

 

[rEd86]

Got it.

Be careful about using your first batch as the yardstick you measure everything against. I have a feeling your growth rates on that batch were unusual and can not easily be reproduced. If they can be, let’s hope you can document what you did in a way that can be easily repeated by the rest of us!

Have you exhausted ways of improving your rotifer supply? I know others are able to sustain a 400+ hatching... I am not asking because I know something, but more to get you thinking about all the options and coming up with alternative solutions. You might end up having to do exactly what you’re proposing.

BTW: Did I miss pictures/details your siphoning method? I think you are seeing the eggs hatch within 15 minutes of the lights going out and siphoning them into a 5 gallon bucket. I’ve been reading some interesting DIY approaches on MOFIB that I think I am going to try when I start breeding. Since you're not sitting around for hours this might not be needed, although it might be a gentler approach to gathering the newly hatched fry. Let me know if you’re interested in building a couple together.

Later!

--Ed

 

[Bud's Reef]

This is so cool and I've been going through some of the same things with Maroon Clowns. I found a guy on the MOFIB site that sells larva traps and it works great. I've only collected three hatches and the first two weren't very successful since I timed it wrong, but the third hatch was amazing.

The trap hangs inside the tank with a small led light taped to the outside at the entrance that has an airline attached to it. The larva come to the light and the air bubbles carry them into the trap.

 

[agsansoo]

@Bud's Reef, do you have a link for these larva traps ?

 

[rEd86]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14870940#post14870940 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by agsansoo
@Bud's Reef, do you have a link for these larva traps ?

There is a guy in the thread I mentioned that talked about building/selling them but I don't know if that's the same one... His screen name is armagedon48 so search for that on the link above and you should can contact him to see if he's still doing it. I plan on making my own - it looks pretty easy to do if you can work with acrylic.

--Ed

 

[agsansoo]

Wow that is way too complicated ! I should talk to melev about making a simple acrylic snagger based on joyce wilkerson's - agsansoo's design.

 

[dazed]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14871058#post14871058 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by agsansoo
Wow that is way too complicated ! I should talk to melev about making a simple acrylic snagger

"based on joyce wilkerson's - agsansoo's design." That's a good idea & melev could make them no problem it's not like he is a busy guy or anything

 

[Bud's Reef]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14871018#post14871018 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rEd86
There is a guy in the thread I mentioned that talked about building/selling them but I don't know if that's the same one... His screen name is armagedon48 so search for that on the link above and you should can contact him to see if he's still doing it. I plan on making my own - it looks pretty easy to do if you can work with acrylic.


--Ed

Yes, this was the one I got but the picture doesn't show the airline. I modified mine to be held on with magnetic clips so it's easy to hold in place. I thought about making my own, but with eveything else I was trying to figure out this seemed the best way to go for me.

 

[landlord]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14869381#post14869381 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rEd86
Be careful about using your first batch as the yardstick you measure everything against. I have a feeling your growth rates on that batch were unusual and can not easily be reproduced. If they can be, let’s hope you can document what you did in a way that can be easily repeated by the rest of us!

I was very pleased with that first batch.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14869381#post14869381 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rEd86
Have you exhausted ways of improving your rotifer supply? I know others are able to sustain a 400+ hatching...

I could vastly improve my rotifer supply by simply adding more 5 gallon buckets to the mix. Since my breeding station is in my Great Room I am trying to keep it as low profile as possible. Keeping my wife happy is first and foremost

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14869381#post14869381 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rEd86
Did I miss pictures/details your siphoning method? I think you are seeing the eggs hatch within 15 minutes of the lights going out and siphoning them into a 5 gallon bucket. I’ve been reading some interesting DIY approaches on MOFIB that I think I am going to try when I start breeding. Since you're not sitting around for hours this might not be needed, although it might be a gentler approach to gathering the newly hatched fry. Let me know if you’re interested in building a couple together.

Ed - You didn't miss any pictures of my siphoning method :lol: becuase they weren't any. It is pretty unremarkable (like siphoning gas from a gas tank). In any case I have read many of the MOFIB snagger threads. These aren't as gentle as one might think. Granted, me sucking the fry down a piece of airline tubing isn't gentle either, but the snaggers seem to tumble the fish in the collection chamber. 500 fry in those tiny chambers tumbling against the mesh, Hmmmm. Don't get me wrong I like the idea, but I would really need to see it work in person or at the very least have a couple of pairs going to invest in one. Ideally, laying on a tile would be optimal.

Kurt

 

[landlord]

Quick update

Batch II - Day 23 - Nothing really new to report. Took some pictures which I need to get the wife to send me. They seem pleased in the 12 gall cube and eat like pigs!.

Batch III - Day 12 - I believe that this hatch is doomed! I have steadily lost about 40 - 60 fry per day now for some time. Those not on the bottom seem to just drift in the current created by the bubbler. There are a few active eaters who I can view going after the Oto A but not many. If I can just get a couple of them to actually get through their delayed meta I would be pleased. This is a lack of proper food at the proper time problem, I'm sure of it. Their current size at Day 12 is close to what the batch II fry looked like a 5 to 6 days! We'll see how this batch plays out.

Batch IV - Day 0 - Well like clockwork the hatch happened on the 9th evening after laying, about 20-30 minutes after I manually shut down the lights. Same routine as last time. I had the wife hold a flashlight in the upper corner of the tank. We lured the babies close enough for them to enter the siphon I created using 1/4 inch airline. I only siphoned for about 15 minutes until I had gathered 100 +/- fry.

I felt bad for the others but I want to be able to enjoy what I am doing, and constantly dealing with the issues around Batch III was starting to take the fun out of it. So in under 20 minutes of effort I got the 100 or so fellas into a 5.5 gallon larval tank.

The rotifers were aplenty! Left the light on over the tank for them, went to bed!

Batch IV - Day 1 - Well I lost about (guessing 1/2) of the fry. I cannot say what happened for sure but physical damage seems to be the most likely culprit. At their current size it is difficult to tell how many are left in the tank. It is a small number for sure < 40. I added some rotifer diet to the tank to keep the culture replicating and wenty to work. We'll see what this afternoon brings. I'll be happy with 40 fry I will at least be able to keep them nice and fat.

Thanks for looking - emailing the wife now to send the pictures I took of Batch II.

Kurt

 

[landlord]

Got some pictures of Batch II at day 23 I'd like to share. Focus sucks but you'll get the idea.

I'll post an update in a bit. Batch II is pretty much toast, I'll explain further.....

Thanks for looking

--Kurt

 

[landlord]

I'll keep this one short

Batch III - Day 13

All buit 3 fry remain, and those were in pretty bad shape. I took theit larval tank offline yesterday afternoon. This batch simply didn't thrive from lack of proper diet. The three remaining fry were transferred to the Batch IV tank. Amazingly they weren't much bigger than the 2 day old fry in there. Happily though once the 3 got their bearings they were skimming the top water like basking sharks hunting for krill. Except they were scooping up rotifers like mad. They could still pull through

Batch IV - Day 2

Well you all know I pulled about a hundred fry and lost half after the first night. When I got home from work yesterday I had lost all but 16 individuals. The tank temp was at 86 which was probably part of the cause. Partly becuase of an overpowering heater and partly because the light resting on the acrylic tank top was simply too hot. I rigged up a light holder an now the temp issue seems to be under control.

On the bright side, I realized that the Batch IV hatch on Tuesday evening was not fully completed. I was able to get another 20-30 fry last night out of the DT I believe that I lost about a dozen or so by morning but I now have a few more to try and raise.

To recap:

3 fry from Batch III
30 fry from Batch IV

...now sharing the same larval tank. Amazingly you can barely tell them apart. There is plenty of rotifers and the greenwater method is keeping their numbers up.

Nothing about this is clear cut, breeding is definitely a learning experience, a very rewarding one though

New News
__________________________________________________

Tomorrow afternoon I should have a breeding pair of GSM's at my doorstep when I get home from work. I'm told they are misbarred but they have been laying eggs for awhile now according to the previous owner. I wouldn't imagine that the misbarring will pass down to the offspring but I could be wrong. In any case I am excited to see what I can do. The offspring of this species was specifically requested by an LFS owner, which could be a win for us both, if I can figure out how to make something happen.

Thank Again

Kurt

 

[landlord]

ERROR CORRECTION 2 posts up "I'll post an update in a bit. Batch II is pretty much toast, I'll explain further..... "

Mean to say

"I'll post an update in a bit. Batch III is pretty much toast, I'll explain further..... "

Sorry to be anal about it

 

[rkelman]

Bummer sorry for your losses but it happens. It still happens to me from time to time. Good luck with the GSM's I wouldn't worry about the misbars.

Rob.

 

[landlord]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14884111#post14884111 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rkelman
Bummer sorry for your losses but it happens. It still happens to me from time to time. Good luck with the GSM's I wouldn't worry about the misbars.

Rob.

Thanks Rob!

The three fry from Batch III that I moved in with the 30 from Batch IV are actually noticeably improved in their appearence and behavior. Perhaps it won't be a total loss (of fry) but the knowledge gained was immeasureable.

Kurt

 

[landlord]

Update!

Batch II - Day 28

These guys are eating like crazy and growing like champs. I lost the runt of this hatch. It was completely my fault as he was sucked up into the filter and died in the chamber. So that leaves me with 36 fish left! I have moved these guys to a 6 gallon tall tank to grow out.

Batch III - Day 17

Well the 3 fry from this batch that I combined with the batch IV fry are doing exceptionally well. They are, of course, a bit stunted from lack of rotifers after their initial hatch but since adding them with my latest batch they have all pulled around. They are in the midst of meta right now and have begun to develop their stripes Not having any issues with mixing the two batches, yeah!

Batch IV - Day 6

I believe there to be around 25 fry in this batch that made it through the delayed hatch and the first morning die off. Those who remain are developing quite nicely. They have fat silver bellies and their tail ends have darkened. Should be getting into meta in a couple days or so.

New News!

My pair of GSM's arrived on Friday! Very cool couple. The misbars that I was concerned about are not to funky. The female's striped simply only go down half of her body length and they are symmetrical on both sides. The male, below his first stripe has two dots, one on each side, right at the bottom. These are also symmetrical. They are adjusting quite well to their 12 gallon cube. I introduced a flower pot and they are currently sleeping beside it :lol: Must be too weird for them to go inside of it. They appear to be doing all the usual clown behaviors, femalle blowing sand around with her tail, male being submissive by turning sideways and shaking, etc. For now I am simply trying to condition the broodstock with good food. In any case if they do breed I'll save it for another thread!

Thanks for Looking and Have a Great Day!

--Kurt

 

[rkelman]

Cool. I'm glad things are going well. How about some pictures of the new pair?

 

[Bud's Reef]

How old is the female of the new pair? My female is a couple of years old now and is losing the stripes which I didn't think could happen. Her head strpe only goes down as far as the top of the eyes and the mid stripe is only an elongated spot on each side at the top. The tail stripe is only an elongated spot on top. The few babies I've been able to get to seven weeks are a mix of misbars and fily striped individuals.