Lanthanum chloride

[thebanker]

It's tough to take a good picture of my actual system, but here's the basic gist from a file photo:

The skimmer is the two narrow chambers on the left, separated by the vertical baffles. The entire system is fed by an EcoPlus pump fitted with a meshwheel impeller, connected to the black tube on the far left. I dose the LaCl directly into the impeller intake.

Underneath the skimmer cup, I have a Hydor Ario aeration pump aimed into the first chamber, to chop up more bubbles and add some recirculation.

From what I can tell the LaCl settles in the first and second chamber, and any overspill lands in the big refugium trough. In my system it is barebottom and stuffed with chaeto, lit by a single T5 at 6700k. You'll notice two holes that allow water into the refugium trough. I have the bottom hole covered with a credit card, secured by a magnet. This raises the water level in the entire skimmer, adding water volume and creating more vertical space to baffle any LaCl precipitate. I think it works, because I have never noticed any significant water clouding in my refugium. I also keep a few corals in there (xenia, frogspawn, pocillopora) and none have ever looked bothered.

I haven't yet felt the need to vaccuum out the sediment, I can see a little bit down there, though.

I also run a TLF150 full of PO4 adsorption resin, but the LaCl is so cost effective I think I'm going to turn it into a purigen reactor.

 

[Bladez]

Picked some up at lunch - i'm diving in tonight! :fish1:

So what is the recommended quantity of the SeaKlear product for a 500 gallon total water volume system?

 

[Scej12]

So what is the recommended quantity of the SeaKlear product for a 500 gallon total water volume system?

I'm going to start of with 1% solution dripping slowly but constantly. If I need more, I can always increase. I bought some SeaKlear from my local pool shop but because they don't carry that particular product, I had to buy and entire case of 12x 1L bottles.....:spin2: Think I have a lifetime supply now... I'll also use it on as many of my clients' tanks as possible.. haha!

Anyway - I'm just in the process of testing my diy bucket reactor... just gluing up a few leaks right now, and should hopefully have it installed by tonight. fun fun fun!!

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

fwiw dept.

fwiw dept.

I'm still using the same bottle of SeaKleer purchased at the beginning of this thread

 

[der_wille_zur_macht]

Thanks to everyone who has participated. This thread has provided one of those rare "hey, there's a long thread I've never read before, I wonder what it's about?" moments that actually panned out to be totally fascinating. I'm now solidly in the day dreaming stage of applying this to my system.

I am interested in hearing more from people using the "reactor" style approach where tank water is (slowly?) pushed through a vessel into which the solution is dripped, vs. dripping somewhere in the main system and collecting precipitate in a filter sock through which the sump's whole turnover flows through. It seems to me that you could design a reactor that ensured minimal exposure of La+++ or precipitate to the rest of the system, which seems like it would be desirable if you weren't doing this in conjunction with water changes as Gary is.

This raises a question. It seems like one of the concerns with a reactor-style setup is that if you overdose and strip the water in the reactor of all phosphate, then La+++ will be delivered to the main system in the reactor's effluent. Is there any tank-safe way to scrub La+++ from the effluent? Seems like this would allow more flexibility in reactor design as you wouldn't have to absolutely nail the right dose and rate with respect to phosphate levels in the tank water at that moment in time. I'm thinking along the lines of dosing an alkalinity supplement into a second reaction chamber, since it bonds with carbonate. But of course that would potentially throw off alkalinity in the system.

But then as soon as I start thinking off along those lines, the whole concept starts getting really complicated and looks less interesting compared to just using GFO and regenerating it to mitigate cost on a big system...

 

[tmz]

Hi,

The lantanum dissociates from the chloride when it hits the water . Fee lanthanum will pass through any filter water will pass through.. It is miscible ,spreads thoughout whatever water it's in rapidly.Slow dose usually via diluted solution with adeqaute flow to bring in PO4 laden water to match the lanthanum chloride being dosed and then and area for precipitation to fall out followed by fine filtering are all important in a dosing system. Not an easy trick given variability in th PO4 content along the way. It also binds to carbonate forming lanthanum carbonate in lieu of lanthanum phosphate too,so alk needs monitoring with heavy use.

Personally. I have dosed it to my main system ocassionally via an overflow that empties into a bottom fed cryptic zone( a brute can full of live rock). That empties from the top into a box filled with filter floss . From there it crosses a sand bed,36 inches long before exiting into the sump without any visible precipitant. Mostly, I rely on vodka/vinegar dosing and gfo for PO4 control though.
For my 65 gallon leather tank which runs independently with only a canister filter and a weak prism skimmer and no organic carbon dosing, I mix about 2ml of Seaklear already diluted to 40% with 20 ozs of ro water and drizle it in near the skimmer intake about 2oz at a time over the course ofthe day.This is aonce a week task. Very little precipitant enters the tank this way but in small enough amounts that I don't fret about it.

 

[thebanker]

Another test. 0.03 ppm on the Hanna checker. LaCl is my phosphate remover of choice from now on!

 

[Scej12]

Another test. 0.03 ppm on the Hanna checker. LaCl is my phosphate remover of choice from now on!

+1 on that... two days and two quick diluted shots of LaCl and my phosphate dropped from 0.5 down to 0.12... while working out the quirks from my DIY reactor... Definitely works extremely fast...

Although my effluent is a slow flow directly into my skimmer, I'm still working on slowing down the flow enough to notice the precipitate settling in the reactor pail... at this rate, I should be at 0.03 by weekend...:dance:

 

[Scej12]

My DIY LaCl Setup...

My DIY LaCl Setup...

Okay - so it took a couple of days, but here are the photos of the jerry-rig I recently put together on one of my Clients' tank.

Ok - So keep in mind that these pics were taken when I first set this up. Although the idea is to have system water passing through the pail slow enough to allow PO4 to precipitate and settle within the same pail, I'm just getting dialed into this system and therefore am still tweaking the correct mix of LaCl to work with whatever I can achieve in terms of flow rate... The mix of LaCl was originally at 1%, but have decided to dilute that down even further to 0.5%. The solution is currently dripping at a rate of about 1.5 drops per second. It's setup like a gravity driven i.v. drip into the air nozzle of a Maxi-Jet 600 powerhead, fighting against 30" of head pressure... this provides about 20 gph (very loose estimate) of flow thru the pail... The pail drains directly into my protein skimmer.

I'm still trying to dial the system in to a constant but slow (maintenance drip); but while setting up I found that a couple of quick doses of the 1% solution (say 20-50mL) was too concentrated to limit reaction within the pail during a one time delivery (while setting the siphon up); so the 450 gallon display tank turned slightly cloudy for a short while, but the event dropped the PO4 from 0.5 down to 0.12 in a single day... I'm sure I would have ended up with some of the precipitate settling within the DT, but boy does this stuff work fast. !!

For the next little while, I'll be playing around with the concentration (either 0.5% or 0.25% LaCl: RO/DI) to allow for a constant drip... I'm hoping to balance ot at 1.5 drops per second...

right now at 0.5% concentration; I'm anticipating trace levels of PO4 (0.03) by the time of my next visit in a day or two...

In any event - I promised these pics a couple of days ago, so there they be...

Sheldon

 

[shroutk3]

Has anybody used the lanthanum to remove phosphates from make up water? I have a rodi unit, but I still seem to be getting phosphates (i get an algae bloom after each water change). Could I somehow dose the lanthanum to the fresh water, then run a filter to remove any precipitate?

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

this product was originally designed as an algaecide for swimming pools so yes, it can be dosed into fresh water

tip: any fluctuation in S.G. (salinity) between makeup water and established aquarium water can cause PO4 to be liberated from rock, sand etc.

If you treat your makeup water with LaCl3 and still have an algae bloom after each water change this MIGHT be your problem. Let us know what happens right here in this thread.

 

[shroutk3]

So you're suggesting that I dose the water before I mix the salt. After I dose the fresh run it through a filter sock to remove precip, mix in salt (wait- usually 12 hours), then do the water change? This doesn't seem unreasonable to me. I may be able to just dose the buckets i store RO in.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

personally

personally

I wouldn't recommend dosing the makeup or freshwater.

Dose the reef aquarium system.

 

[tmz]

I wouldn't dose the water change water either. Likely , when the lanthanum and chloride disassociate in the fresh water, free lanthanum will be hanging around and precipitate the carbonate( alkalinity) in the salt when it's added,Leaving a salt mix depleted in alk and no unbound lanthanum for the PO4 in the aquarium.

 

[Bladez]

Interesting - is there a discussion thread discussing this topic?

tip: any fluctuation in S.G. (salinity) between makeup water and established aquarium water can cause PO4 to be liberated from rock, sand etc.

 

[Scej12]

Has anybody used the lanthanum to remove phosphates from make up water? I have a rodi unit, but I still seem to be getting phosphates (i get an algae bloom after each water change). Could I somehow dose the lanthanum to the fresh water, then run a filter to remove any precipitate?

Are you getting diatoms - this could be due to silicates making it through if your DI resin in due for renewal...

Sheldon

 

[tmz]

Interesting - is there a discussion thread discussing this topic?

Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset"> Originally Posted by Gary Majchrzak
tip: any fluctuation in S.G. (salinity) between makeup water and established aquarium water can cause PO4 to be liberated from rock, sand etc.
</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

Here is an article you may find helpful:

http://www.fishchannel.com/saltwater-aquariums/aquarium-frontiers/what-is-phosphate.aspx

Shifts in PO4 species are ph dependent .Less sg might mean less carbonate and lower ph. Calcium carbonate(aragonite)begins to dissolve at ph 7.7 and when it does it will release any phosphate it holds.

Lesser downward shifts in ph also may affect binding strength,perhaps.

PO4 speciation ,ie the instantaneous shifting from H3PO4 with no negative charge to H2 PO4 with a single negative charge to HPO4 with two to PO4 with 3, depending on how much H+ is around (more at lower ph means more shifitng towards H3 PO4) could lessen the overall bonding strength of PO4 in the water . I don't think anyone knows for certain why PO4 bound to aragonite surfaces leaches back but it does when overall PO4 levels in the water are kept very low. Probably some form of equilibration.

 

[cromedogg33]

Just picked some of the seaklear up this past weekend. Is there any benefit to dilute the solution vs putting in a drop or 2 at a time in an overflow down to a 5 micron sock?

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

Just picked some of the seaklear up this past weekend. Is there any benefit to dilute the solution vs putting in a drop or 2 at a time in an overflow down to a 5 micron sock?

read this thread

 

[cromedogg33]

Lol...ok...read it a couple times.

I wouldn't be asking that sort of question if I hadn't. I understand that the lathanum may pass through the sock before reacting. I've tried both with essentially the same outcome (mixing 1l w/1ml).

I guess I'm asking for yours and other opinions. I've noticed through the threads growth many people are trying reactors vs your method of sock dripping/overflows/skimmers.

I had decided against dripping in the overflow connected directly to an external skimmer due to Mark (Melev's) comments on potential gumming up of the pump.

So again....I ask in others experience is there a benefit of doing one over the other; diluted, or not? My main concern being would 1 drop of non diluted lathanum even have time to react to the p04 in such a quick amount of time?