Lanthanum chloride

[Scej12]

you have one helluva set up... and I'm talking about that sump room, too!

Haha... Thanks Gary! - though I do have an unfair advantage - the tank is a public display here in Toronto. Sooo I get to use their budget; and assemble all of the ideas I learn from guys like you and the other experts here on RC..:spin1:

very well done, running through carbon, CR and then skimmers provides much more of a barrier to not allow LC precipitates to escape into the DT

also, it's easy to see the yellow LC precipitates against the contrasting black carbon

do you plan on changing the carbon when you see the LC precipitates building up (prior to clogging) since you are not there daily?

Thanks Elliott - yes there is quite a barrier, not to mention the extended duration it takes system water to make a round-trip. I would estimate that the entire route takes at least 1.5 - 2 hrs from leaving to re-entering the sump.

Precipitates settle in all three canisters. I've taken some more pics this morning which I will upload when I sinq my blackberry at home... I'm sure some is settling in the CaCO3 reactor as well, but no further than that as far as I can see.

I'll change the carbon based on the system requirements. Because I feed sooo much I have quite a bit of organics that can build up. In the absence of ozone; and in the presence of organic carbon dosing, I have to rely on good protein skimming and a carbon regime to keep the organics from building up too much... However, I will clean out the canisters if I see too much precipitate accumulating as I don't want it to re-dissolve at any point - I figure it's better to remove what I can to keep the efficiency working at its highest level... so will likely clean the system a little more often in the beginning at least until the PO4 levels stabilize at trace levels. When the air stalling occurs; the PO4 level rises back up pretty quickly, therefore it is clear that I still have quite a bit of 'PO4 leaching from rocks' to compete with for the next month or two.

I'll provide a little more details later, but just to give a small indication: when the system is running smoothly (i.e. no air in CR) the system dropped from 0.53 to 0.45 from Wednesday to Thursday; then from 0.45 to 0.34 from Thursday to Sunday; if the air stalls its efficiency it will rise back up to 0.50 within a couple of days (from PO4 leaching back from liverock).

Regards,

Sheldon

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

Haha... Thanks Gary! - though I do have an unfair advantage - the tank is a public display here in Toronto. Sooo I get to use their budget; and assemble all of the ideas I learn from guys like you and the other experts here on RC.

not the Science Center reef aquarium by chance, is it?

 

[Scej12]

Nope - it's the Schad Reef at the ROM (Royal Ontario Museum)... I've been in charge of it since January of 2009; before it opened to the public (in May 2009). I assumed responsibility for it just when the livestock was being introduced, and have made a few modifications; and completed a couple of systems since then:
- Jaubert Plenum in one of the refugiums;
- taken all mechanical filtration offline except for the two large skimmers to allow an insane pod population to proliferate (I'll show a video of millions of them swimming around at 2:00 in the morning when I was fragging some over-grown montipora caps)
- Carbon Dosing to control Nitrates;
- and now LaCl3 to control Phosphates...

As I've indicated before - I humbly take lots of notes from RC...

Regards,
Sheldon

 

[Elliott]

Nope - it's the Schad Reef at the ROM (Royal Ontario Museum)... I've been in charge of it since January of 2009; before it opened to the public (in May 2009). I assumed responsibility for it just when the livestock was being introduced, and have made a few modifications; and completed a couple of systems since then:
- Jaubert Plenum in one of the refugiums;
- taken all mechanical filtration offline except for the two large skimmers to allow an insane pod population to proliferate (I'll show a video of millions of them swimming around at 2:00 in the morning when I was fragging some over-grown montipora caps)
- Carbon Dosing to control Nitrates;
- and now LaCl3 to control Phosphates...

As I've indicated before - I humbly take lots of notes from RC...

Regards,
Sheldon

have you had any problems using LC with clams and LPS? or with any other livestock?

2 am ?? wow, now that's service! :fun5:

 

[Scej12]

None so far. This is only my second foray into LC. The first implementation didn't have any ill effects on livestock.

 

[Scej12]

Photos from this morning...

Photos from this morning...

Here are some updates and a little background on the system:

Current Reef PO4 is 0.34ppm as of this morning; Three days of running smoothly (this came down from 0.45ppm)

PO4 reading exiting reactors between CaCO3 Reactor and skimmer is 0.06ppm

Dosing Pumps (right is 0.75% LaCl3; Left is for vinegar carbon dosing)

Dosing Jugs (front is LaCl3 mixture; back is vinegar)

KH is maintained by a relatively fast CO2 bubble count into the CaCO3 Reactor (roughly 2 bubbles per second maintains dKH of 7 on a 900g total system volume; Ca sits between 400-440):

Another view of CaCO3 Reactor:

Skimmer Production:

LaCl3 Drip compartment (air pocket remaining relatively stable):

Chamber 1 connected to recirc pump (high water movement) - Precipitate sticking to wall of canister:

Chamber 2: slow thru-put - precipitate settling at bottom:

Chamber 3: Precipitate settling on top of carbon:

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

outstanding. I'd like to visit someday!

 

[Scej12]

No Probs... pm me when you're in town.

SJ

 

[H20ENG]

Nice work Sheldon!
I like the extra steps to catch the precipitate. I used 2- 10 micron socks for his LC reactor,and then piped to the fractionator inlet. I like the idea of using carbon as a sort of mechanical filter too. Serves double duty.

A friend of mine is having trouble with fogging on the acrylic next to the return nozzles. I asked him to slow the drip rate to the LC reactor or reduce the concentration. Is this caused from LC passing through the socks and reacting with the water further in the piping?

Gary and Joe touched on this, but does anyone know what exactly this fogging is? Lanthanum carbonate? I have heard that it can only be removed by buffing. Tough stuff.
Thanks,

 

[Scej12]

Thanks!

Take a pic of the fogging.. if it is precipitated carbonate and/or phosphate it should wipe off relatively easy if done frequently... That being said however, I do have a little maxijet pump feeding my other constant run setup ( shown on pg 19) on which the impeller magnet turns white (similar to the fogging you described). When I wash it off it appears clean until it dries and assumes that whitish look again. I assumed the heat has caused the carbonate to bake onto the magnet or something; similar to what happens to a stove kettle base, or electric kettle element which needs a vinegar or CLR soaking to dissolve this calcification...

However, I have noticed that precipitate adheres to the acrylic wall of my first chamber as a result of the high flow - I've only cleaned it once and it came off very easily... maybe because I cleaned it after only 2 weeks of operation (as opposed to the maxijet I described earlier which I pull apart after 2 or 3 months and always seems to look whitish after cleaning with regular tapwater - never vinegar soaked it yet).

Regards,

Sheldon

 

[shiladitya1991]

If I want to use Lanthanum Chloride outside my tank in say a rubbermaid container, is there any chance of dosing too much? Should i use a skimmer or just circulate the water? Any other tips will be helpful. I have a Hanna Ultra low po4 test kit.

 

[Scej12]

There is a risk of overdosing if your rubbermaid container is connected to your system. I would think the LC will only react with available PO4 & CO3 in the separate container then go on to react with whatever's in the balance of your system.

I would dose slowly and be content to see your system PO4 moving slowly in the right direction.

Regards,

Sheldon

 

[NirvanaFan]

Gary (or anyone else),
Do you remember where you bought this online? I did a quick search for lanthanum chloride but didn't really come up with anything. All the pool supply stores have stuff called Sea Klear, but I don't see ingredients or anything.

I found some stuff on eBay, but I'm not sure if that is the way to go or not.

 

[NirvanaFan]

It seems as though I have found the MSDS for Sea Klear Zero Phos.
http://www.horizonpoolsupply.com/_uls/resources/MSDS_SEA-KLEAR_Zero-Phos.pdf

Is this the stuff that you use Gary?
http://www.spadepot.com/shop/Sea-Klear-Phosphate-Remover-32-oz-P9233C635.aspx?

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

that's the stuff

that's the stuff

and I'm still using the same bottle I purchased at the beginning of this thread!

 

[NirvanaFan]

Thanks!

 

[donald altman]

I was kind of thinking the same thing... I could probably just add this to top off water fro maintenance once po4 was reduced to acceptable range?!?

Seems a whole lot easier than some of the ractors and things you guys are using.

 

[Elliott]

I used LC extensively with a diatomaceous earth pool filter and never had a problem, however recently I used LC in a filter sock and began seeing problems with LPS and Clams, after loosing a few of each a couple days after using LC on a few different occasions I decided to discontinue using LC. I now rely solely on skimmers and ATS's to reduce nitrates/phosphates, no chemicals

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

I used LC extensively with a diatomaceous earth pool filter and never had a problem, however recently I used LC in a filter sock and began seeing problems with LPS and Clams, after loosing a few of each a couple days after using LC on a few different occasions I decided to discontinue using LC. I now rely solely on skimmers and ATS's to reduce nitrates/phosphates, no chemicals

I did mention clams seemed irritated by LaCl3. Used in moderation and properly administered I don't believe LaCl3 poses a lethal threat to marine life.
Now, if one were to use it as topoff water... well... why bother?
You're aquarium would be better off with elevated levels of PO4!

 

[Elliott]

I did mention clams seemed irritated by LaCl3. Used in moderation and properly administered I don't believe LaCl3 poses a lethal threat to marine life.
Now, if one were to use it as topoff water... well... why bother?
You're aquarium would be better off with elevated levels of PO4!

yes, like most things in this hobby, misuse quickly leads to misgivings
LC, when used properly by not dropping P04 too quickly and not allowing the precipitate or excess LC to get into the DT, is very safe, at least in my experience :thumbsup: