Lanthanum chloride
- Thread starter Gary Majchrzak
- Start date
Dactylopterus
New member
That would be for the NON-DIY'rs. Us DIY'rs have already built something better
Yes, I can't believe how expensive they sell those reactors. Just checked your reactor draw of your system, very well implemented. I just knew about LaCl a couple of weeks ago, and I'm still learning about it. I don't want to spend more money or time using the GFO system and this way seems very efficient.
Dustin1300
Reefaholic
For the 1000 gallon system I earlier referenced, phosphates are continuing to drop with the maintenance dose of 1.1 mL an hour of 1% LaCl Dilution. Originally was about .05 ppm on 6/16. As of last night ULR checker read 7 ppb or .021 ppm. I've backed the dose off from 1.1 mL an hour to 1.1 mL every two hours. Because I have just started system and fish are just being ramped up, phosphates are not much of an issue at this point but I'm prepared for the future. 54 fish (50 being black axils) on order for next week so they'll help add some phosphates with their eatings.
miatawnt2b
New member
Quick question for you guys that have built your own reactor setup. Are you putting a check valve on the LaCl line? What brand check valve are you using and how long is it lasting for you? I would imagine that the LaCl will cause a check valve to fail in short order. Maybe it would be best to use a peristaltic pump.
-J
-J
insomniac2k2
Active member
I use a BRS check valve and a peristaltic pump. My setup has been alive for a little while now. I'm not sure exactly how long without checking my thread, but I will definitely give feedback on how long it lasts.
jjoos99
New member
I have ordered the seaklear product, filter socks. Ready to dilute 5ml in a liter of water and dose 500ml at a time over an hour or so. How often are you dosing the 500 ml? I have been fighting green hair for over a year now. I have tried just about everything and have lost pretty much all of my sps colonies, some were very big. This will be just about my last ditch effort before a complete tank tear down and ditching my current live rock.
thanks
Jeff
thanks
Jeff
Gary Majchrzak
Team RC
well, Jeff... I don't check into this thread regularly anymore....
just a few of my thoughts:
I'm still using the (REALLY live) liverock in my reef aquarium today that I purchased in 1993. Over the past 20 years there have been times when my aquarium and/or liverock was SMOTHERED in hair algae. There is absolutely no reason to ditch your liverock simply because it might be leaching PO4.
If liverock needs a "cleaning" read the RC threads ROCK COOKING, IT DOES WORK
(note: the process does NOT involve heat!)
and
ROCK REINCARNATION...BEYOND "COOKING"
My next big question to anyone considering LaCl3 dosing would be: HAVE YOU PURCHASED A LOW RANGE PO4 TEST AND WHAT ARE YOUR PRESENT PO4 LEVELS?
Never dose something without testing for it.
I understand aquarist's frustration with nuisance algae but I've seen MANY people cause damage by the improper use of powerful tools... and that's basically what this method is... ONE type of powerful tool for PO4 reduction.
*ZERO PO4 CAN KILL
*OVERDOSING LaCl3 IS MORE HARMFUL TO ANY AQUARIUM THAN HAIR ALGAE
If SPS colonies are dying make sure you are maintaining SG, temp, alkalinity, calcium and Mg levels. There are many factors involved and a lot of people might thing LaCl3 dosing is the "answer" when in fact there is no one "silver bullet" cure.
My opinion:
Without a low range test kit to monitor PO4 levels one should NOT attempt dosing LaCl3
just a few of my thoughts:
I'm still using the (REALLY live) liverock in my reef aquarium today that I purchased in 1993. Over the past 20 years there have been times when my aquarium and/or liverock was SMOTHERED in hair algae. There is absolutely no reason to ditch your liverock simply because it might be leaching PO4.
If liverock needs a "cleaning" read the RC threads ROCK COOKING, IT DOES WORK
(note: the process does NOT involve heat!)
and
ROCK REINCARNATION...BEYOND "COOKING"
My next big question to anyone considering LaCl3 dosing would be: HAVE YOU PURCHASED A LOW RANGE PO4 TEST AND WHAT ARE YOUR PRESENT PO4 LEVELS?
Never dose something without testing for it.
I understand aquarist's frustration with nuisance algae but I've seen MANY people cause damage by the improper use of powerful tools... and that's basically what this method is... ONE type of powerful tool for PO4 reduction.
*ZERO PO4 CAN KILL
*OVERDOSING LaCl3 IS MORE HARMFUL TO ANY AQUARIUM THAN HAIR ALGAE
If SPS colonies are dying make sure you are maintaining SG, temp, alkalinity, calcium and Mg levels. There are many factors involved and a lot of people might thing LaCl3 dosing is the "answer" when in fact there is no one "silver bullet" cure.
My opinion:
Without a low range test kit to monitor PO4 levels one should NOT attempt dosing LaCl3
Last edited:
jjoos99
New member
I do have a salifert kit. Each time that I have tested, it tests low and I have been told you cant go by that because the the free phos in the water will be taken up by all the algae and you wont get a true reading. I have kept all my parameters in check. I have been using a coil denitrater, rdsb filter and biopellets all to no avail. I started with random stn from the base of my sps then I was getting some red slime algae, then into the forest of green hair algae. I probably will look into a hanna meter. I hate having to guess the levels by colors.
Thanks for the advise.
Jeff
Thanks for the advise.
Jeff
jjoos99
New member
I dont know what it is about hair algae but when I would do a water change I would scrub the rocks with a tooth brush and let the algae get caught up in my overflows and filtered to my skimmer. The next day everything would be almost colorless and completely retracted. I first contributed it to the water change but later found out that it was being caused by the algae storm I was creating within the tank. It was weeks before things were looking better after each harvest. My live rock was purchased dry rock and I had the initial algae forest that went away for several years only to return later on. Thus I believe it to be the slow build up of phos. I will be doing more water changes as i hit the tank hard to get it straightened out. I so dont want to have to do a complete tear down, cook the rocks and rebuild.
thanks
Jeff
thanks
Jeff
If you do buy the Hanna meter, I suggest the low range "Phosphorus" meter. I had a HA problem for "years" due to leaching from Pukani rock. The Hanna "Phosphate meter ALWAYS read 0.0! When I bought the Phosphorus meter, the reading was .03 after conversion.
I didn't tear down my tank but I worked diligently for about 2 years with weekly, large WC's, scrubbing the rock, harvesting chaeto and GFO changes, every 3-5 days! It cost me an arm and a leg:thumbdown (Biopellets didn't work for me) I still have a little HA in the tank but I figure that is a good sign of a healthy mixed reef. In hindsight, it would have been easier and definitely cheaper to tear my tank down but....live and learn! :reading:
I've read though the entire post, maybe more than once.
.
I looked up some info on the 5 micron socks. There are some rated as Nominal, which capture 80% of particles at 5 micron and capture 98% at 50 microns.
Other bags are labeled absolute, they capture 98% , at 5 microns.
It appears that most are using the Nominal bags,so almost everything is filterd down to 50 microns.
If the math holds true, then the 10 Micron socks would let stuff beyond 50 microns through.
Is most of the precipitate smaller than 50 Microns?
Would there be a need for absolute rated bag?
TIA,
Todd
.I looked up some info on the 5 micron socks. There are some rated as Nominal, which capture 80% of particles at 5 micron and capture 98% at 50 microns.
Other bags are labeled absolute, they capture 98% , at 5 microns.
It appears that most are using the Nominal bags,so almost everything is filterd down to 50 microns.
If the math holds true, then the 10 Micron socks would let stuff beyond 50 microns through.
Is most of the precipitate smaller than 50 Microns?
Would there be a need for absolute rated bag?
TIA,
Todd
jjoos99
New member
I thought that I would share my experience with dosing for the past couple of weeks. I mix my dose like Gary recommended with 5ml in a liter of water. I also have been adding 500 ml of the dose about every other day. I just bought iv drip bags from ebay. I drip into my overflow which goes direct into my skimmer. I then have my skimmer outlet flow through filter socks that I also got on ebay. I first noticed the hair algae in the overflow starting to turn brown and coming loose. The last several days the algae that is in my tank has lost it dark green color also turning brown and seems to be thinning. I dont see any effect on the fish or my lps corals. I cant make any judgement on effects on sps. The only sps I have right now is some monti cap. (doing fine) So far so good and I will be continuing the dose. This may just be my hole grail for bringing my tank back without a complete tank tear down and restart. I appreciate everyone who has done the testing of this product.
Jeff
Jeff
Wow this has been some interesting reading. Thanks to all those who posted and please, jjoos99, post further developements as you'll definitely have me reading them.
Just one question tho, what is the reasoning behind the polyfil or quilt batting in the chamber? Somewhere I missed that one.
Just one question tho, what is the reasoning behind the polyfil or quilt batting in the chamber? Somewhere I missed that one.
Control over 3 potential tank pollutants; not just precipitant need to be achieved when dosing lanthanum chloride(LaCl) ,imo:
The amount of lanthanum phosphate precipitant(LaPO4) moving through the filter is first. Sand filters , and a variety of fiber media ,socks, floss, et alia are used with variable success. Whether it's a 5 to 10 micron size or otherwise is hard to figure ,since the size and active growth of a lanthanum phosphate crystal is likely variable based on the type and amount of orthophospahte involved ( PO4, HPO4, H2PO4, H3PO4) and any carbonate joining the matrix.
Second., unpercipitated lanthanum(La) itself is likely to go through any filter water moves through. I think it's actually smaller than water but would have to look that up to be certain. In any case it's small enough to make mechanical filtration impractical. Some will get through. Slow dosing and exposure to enough water containing PO4 species to precipitate as much free lanthanum as possible before the filter is key here. Otherwise, it will precipitate elsewhere and may cause harm to organisms.
Third , the reaction of lanthanum chloride with PO4 species produces hydrochloric acid: e.g:
LaCl3- plus H3PO4 ---> LaPO4 plus 3 HCL
Again slow dosing prefilter should minimize harmful HCl concentrations in the wrong places.
All in all, after several years of toying with it , I personally prefer not to use it in a reef tank favoring other orthophosphate control methods. If I do use it it will be in very small amounts with very careful attention to slow dosing and filtering.
For those interested in more detail on how lanthanum phosphate is formed by various methods this study may be of interest:
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/A:1018696211730#page-1
The amount of lanthanum phosphate precipitant(LaPO4) moving through the filter is first. Sand filters , and a variety of fiber media ,socks, floss, et alia are used with variable success. Whether it's a 5 to 10 micron size or otherwise is hard to figure ,since the size and active growth of a lanthanum phosphate crystal is likely variable based on the type and amount of orthophospahte involved ( PO4, HPO4, H2PO4, H3PO4) and any carbonate joining the matrix.
Second., unpercipitated lanthanum(La) itself is likely to go through any filter water moves through. I think it's actually smaller than water but would have to look that up to be certain. In any case it's small enough to make mechanical filtration impractical. Some will get through. Slow dosing and exposure to enough water containing PO4 species to precipitate as much free lanthanum as possible before the filter is key here. Otherwise, it will precipitate elsewhere and may cause harm to organisms.
Third , the reaction of lanthanum chloride with PO4 species produces hydrochloric acid: e.g:
LaCl3- plus H3PO4 ---> LaPO4 plus 3 HCL
Again slow dosing prefilter should minimize harmful HCl concentrations in the wrong places.
All in all, after several years of toying with it , I personally prefer not to use it in a reef tank favoring other orthophosphate control methods. If I do use it it will be in very small amounts with very careful attention to slow dosing and filtering.
For those interested in more detail on how lanthanum phosphate is formed by various methods this study may be of interest:
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/A:1018696211730#page-1
marinelife
Active member
I am getting ready to start dosing this, I figure the best for me is to use the extra output on the return pipe to flow back to the sump with the skimmer. I would have it output to a 5-10 micro filter sock. Would this work? or should I put the filter sock on the overflow output?
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