Gary Majchrzak
Team RC
looks identical to mine
looks identical to mine
the stuff I'm using has the same label
looks identical to mine
the stuff I'm using has the same label
Lanthanum chloride
- Thread starter Gary Majchrzak
- Start date
Hello all:
I have been researching Lanthanum chloride and Lanthanum carboxylate as possible tools for phosphate reduction in the koi pond hobby. Water changes have been the conventional method. The proliferation of water use restrictions is placing in question continuation of the practice of replacing thousands of gallons of water weekly. Use of Lanthanum chloride in reef aquaria appears far advanced compared to use in other aquatic hobbies. I would appreciate input.
The serious concern raised by this thread is the need for mechanical filtration of precipitate at the 10 micron and smaller level. This is wholly impractical in the pond environment. That leads to needing to know whether the precipitate is itself dangerous to the well-being of fish. The references to filter feeders being harmed are convincing and readily understandable. It is not clear to me, however, whether actual damage to fish gills has been observed, or has just been assumed from observation of fish appearing irritated. There are multiple references to Tangs being adversely affected, but it is not clear to me whether these were temporary symptoms or if a chronic condition developed... or deaths. One post explicitly relating fish deaths to LC use also referred to experiencing fish deaths on other occasions prior to ever using LC, so that one experience does not cause me to assume a causative correlation.
Any and all experiences with adverse affects on fish well-being are of interest. Dealing with phosphate in ponds of 5,000 or 20,000 gallons makes the low cost of LC enticing, but when the koi may cost several thousand dollars each, risks to their well-being cannot be taken lightly.
....Hope you'll excuse this freshwater guy butting into your marine world.
I have been researching Lanthanum chloride and Lanthanum carboxylate as possible tools for phosphate reduction in the koi pond hobby. Water changes have been the conventional method. The proliferation of water use restrictions is placing in question continuation of the practice of replacing thousands of gallons of water weekly. Use of Lanthanum chloride in reef aquaria appears far advanced compared to use in other aquatic hobbies. I would appreciate input.
The serious concern raised by this thread is the need for mechanical filtration of precipitate at the 10 micron and smaller level. This is wholly impractical in the pond environment. That leads to needing to know whether the precipitate is itself dangerous to the well-being of fish. The references to filter feeders being harmed are convincing and readily understandable. It is not clear to me, however, whether actual damage to fish gills has been observed, or has just been assumed from observation of fish appearing irritated. There are multiple references to Tangs being adversely affected, but it is not clear to me whether these were temporary symptoms or if a chronic condition developed... or deaths. One post explicitly relating fish deaths to LC use also referred to experiencing fish deaths on other occasions prior to ever using LC, so that one experience does not cause me to assume a causative correlation.
Any and all experiences with adverse affects on fish well-being are of interest. Dealing with phosphate in ponds of 5,000 or 20,000 gallons makes the low cost of LC enticing, but when the koi may cost several thousand dollars each, risks to their well-being cannot be taken lightly.
....Hope you'll excuse this freshwater guy butting into your marine world.
Gary Majchrzak
Team RC
welcome!
welcome!
I've been using LC for some time now and I have some rather sensitive marines.
All appear quite well
None of my fishes have the exact same eating habits of Koi but I suspect that if you don't overdo treatments your Koi will be just fine.
But I have to wonder... WHY do you want to reduce PO4 levels in your pond?
welcome!
I've been using LC for some time now and I have some rather sensitive marines.
All appear quite well
None of my fishes have the exact same eating habits of Koi but I suspect that if you don't overdo treatments your Koi will be just fine.
But I have to wonder... WHY do you want to reduce PO4 levels in your pond?
My interest in reducing PO4 levels is focused on controlling (limiting) string algae. The conventional wisdom in the koikeeping hobby is that control of nitrate levels combined with shading of the pond has been 'the way' to deal with excessive filamentous algae. Except, of course, that this approach fails as much as it ever succeeds. My studies have led me to conclude that the so-called successes were as likely instances of population maturity and seasonal factors leading to population decline. Cladaphora is quite capable of abundant growth in low nitrogen environments. Phosphorous has been established as the limiting nutrient in a number of studies of Cladaphora in lake and natural pond environments. Koi foods add substantial amounts of phosphate on a continual basis, which means it would never be practical to accomplish the low PO4 levels sought for a reef tank. But, koikeepers are not adverse to the presence of algae per se. A carpet of algae covering pond walls is even desired (to some extent). Seasonally, however, even the best maintained ponds can experience extreme blooms of string algae (hair algae), with plumes several feet long. This extreme algae growth results in filter blockages and increased work to maintain water quality. The situation is being aggravated by increasing water restrictions around the country from California to Florida. I personally use around 20,000 gallons of water per month for water changes on a 12,500 gallon pond. Some using a continual flow of fresh water would consume twice as much for the same sized pond. There is growing interest in 'rejuvenating' water by chemical means to reduce the amount of new water used. In some locales, the monthly water bill of a serious koikeeper exceeds household electric expense.
...An overly long reply to a simple question.
Somewhat more to topic, are you aware of verified instances of LC use adversely affecting fish well-being? In the koi pond, I would expect precipitates to be captured in the short filaments of algae in the pond and be consumed as koi mouth the algae to reach the insect larvae and other forms of life inhabiting the filaments. So, impacts on the gills from precipitate in the water column is one concern. Impacts from consumption is another.
...An overly long reply to a simple question.
Somewhat more to topic, are you aware of verified instances of LC use adversely affecting fish well-being? In the koi pond, I would expect precipitates to be captured in the short filaments of algae in the pond and be consumed as koi mouth the algae to reach the insect larvae and other forms of life inhabiting the filaments. So, impacts on the gills from precipitate in the water column is one concern. Impacts from consumption is another.
I have personally observed a yellow tang drop and die after swimming through a light cloud of precipitant. Fast dosing and a lack of filtration in salt water aquarium use can be lethal to some marine fish.
I don't know if the fish reactions are from clogging from the precipitant or free lanthanum hitting the gills and/ or from ingestion.
Chemical reactions may be different in fresh water given the low levels of carbonate relative to salt water and gill sensitivity might be different for koi. I don't know if the fish reactions are limited to clogging from the precipitant or free lanthanum hitting the gills or from ingestion.
Are any other koi keepers using it for algae control?
Fast dosing and a lack of filtration in salt water aquarium use can be lethal to some marine fish.
I don't know if the fish reactions are from clogging from the precipitant or free lanthanum hitting the gills and/ or from ingestion.
Chemical reactions may be different in fresh water given the low levels of carbonate relative to salt water and gill sensitivity might be different for koi. I don't know if the fish reactions are limited to clogging from the precipitant or free lanthanum hitting the gills or from ingestion.
Are any other koi keepers using it for algae control?
Fast dosing and a lack of filtration in salt water aquarium use can be lethal to some marine fish.
I am not aware of it being used by anyone. There have been a number of bottled concoctions come on the market in the past few years aimed at pondkeepers in general. The ingredients are typically not disclosed. I suspect many are formulations using aluminium oxide, which has something of a mixed record due to dramatic pH affects. I am attempting gather experience with these various products (from pondkeepers), but thus far have found no useful experience by serious koikeepers..... We tend to avoid the fads of the day. So many have proved useless or cause as much harm as any benefit. Marketing so often overrides full disclosure.
Gary Majchrzak
Team RC
I've seen serious damage done with the mis-use of many chemicals- including LC.
Can it kill? Sure!
The destruction I've seen was not from ingestion but rather how Tom (tmz) just described it..
directly related to improper use of LC.
Ironically enough there are freshwater and marine species of Cladophora.
Cladophora is probably the most difficult marine algae to remove from a reef aquarium, IME.
Personally, I use LC to bring PO4 levels down from extremely high levels for scleractinian growth- not to defeat algae.
IME it's much more effective to bring PO4 levels down to extremely low levels using granulated ferric oxide (gfo in the reef hobby).
Check out the Long Island Aquarium.
Joe Yaiullo uses LC on his extremely heavily fed 20,000 gallon reef display which is one of the finest in the world. LC is also used in penguin and marine mammal displays around the world. Isn't it also used on humans during kidney dialysis treatments?
I would think it safe for Koi as long as administerd properly but I would certainly love to hear from anyone using it for this purpose successfully!
All PO4 adsorbing materials affect pH to my knowledge- -not just aluminum oxide... which is also used in reef aquaria to reduce PO4
Can it kill? Sure!
The destruction I've seen was not from ingestion but rather how Tom (tmz) just described it..
directly related to improper use of LC.
Ironically enough there are freshwater and marine species of Cladophora.
Cladophora is probably the most difficult marine algae to remove from a reef aquarium, IME.
Personally, I use LC to bring PO4 levels down from extremely high levels for scleractinian growth- not to defeat algae.
IME it's much more effective to bring PO4 levels down to extremely low levels using granulated ferric oxide (gfo in the reef hobby).
Check out the Long Island Aquarium.
Joe Yaiullo uses LC on his extremely heavily fed 20,000 gallon reef display which is one of the finest in the world. LC is also used in penguin and marine mammal displays around the world. Isn't it also used on humans during kidney dialysis treatments?
I would think it safe for Koi as long as administerd properly but I would certainly love to hear from anyone using it for this purpose successfully!
All PO4 adsorbing materials affect pH to my knowledge- -not just aluminum oxide... which is also used in reef aquaria to reduce PO4
There are reasons Cladaphora is so difficult. My reading on it has been largely limited to freshwater. A couple of years ago I gathered together a summary, posted at: http://www.koi-bito.com/forum/main-forum/14851-understanding-string-algae.html
I expect the marine forms have the same or analogous traits.
Thanks for input. ....Hoping for some more.
I expect the marine forms have the same or analogous traits.
Thanks for input. ....Hoping for some more.
Gary Majchrzak
Team RC
update
update
I finally finished off the bottle of LC started at the top of this thread!
After a brief hiatus from LC I've broken into a second bottle.
update
I finally finished off the bottle of LC started at the top of this thread!
After a brief hiatus from LC I've broken into a second bottle.
Gary Majchrzak
Team RC
Time flies!
Are you currently using either method now, John?
Are you currently using either method now, John?
Gary Majchrzak
Team RC
Understood completely here
burban94
Member
My local Wally World has Clorox pool and spa phosphate remover. It sells for just under $9 for 1qt. Thinking of using it if I can find out if it's lacl, which I believe it to be. I just want to be sure. The msds doesn't list ingredients as most others do not either. Any help????
michael guenther
New member
Last edited:
nottarts23
New member
seaklear commercial phosphate vs seaklear phosphate cr
seaklear commercial phosphate vs seaklear phosphate cr
I have found out the hard way that you need to look at product descriptions as well as pictures when ordering thru amazon. I was sent the commercial bottle of the seaklear remover. It is my understanding that it 3x stronger vs the regular CR bottle.
I was hoping someone has used the commericial version of seaklear phosphate remover and provide a quick dosing guide. how many MLs of commercial to treat 150 gallon system?
Thanks,
seaklear commercial phosphate vs seaklear phosphate cr
I have found out the hard way that you need to look at product descriptions as well as pictures when ordering thru amazon. I was sent the commercial bottle of the seaklear remover. It is my understanding that it 3x stronger vs the regular CR bottle.
I was hoping someone has used the commericial version of seaklear phosphate remover and provide a quick dosing guide. how many MLs of commercial to treat 150 gallon system?
Thanks,
michael guenther
New member
o.k, first we in Israel have no Commercial version of seaklear, so i order thru Allibaba the chemical lanthanum chloride and dilute 100 gram with 1 liter RO water, it means 10% solution. from this i take 3 ml. in 1 liter RO water with a dosing pump thru my d.i.y reactor for 24 h.
the point is to keep the process very slowly.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=8287&pictureid=70256
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=8287&pictureid=70257
the point is to keep the process very slowly.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=8287&pictureid=70256
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=8287&pictureid=70257
marinelife
Active member
obet_carlos
Member
Tried LC to lower my phosphates.. I was battling hair algae in my sand.. had a low PO4 reading 0.18 but very very bad hair algae.. started dosing a while back, i did not dose religiously.. from 0.18, it will read 0.13 in my HANNA po4. I use 2mL Seaklear CR to 1.5L. I'm not sure this is the correct ratio but works for me. The hair algae slowly disappeared and i dosed again this weekend and from 0.11, my hanna read 0.00. I added GFO in a mesh bag and will test again next week.
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