Lanthanum chloride

[Conesus_Kid]

FYI: Here is the MSDS for the Phos-free brand found at Leslies Pool Supply stores:

http://www.lesliesmsds.com/DocumentCenter.aspx?did=7b6aa4a6-8168-4ade-9ce2-7fa992c31851

 

[SkiFletch]

Cool

 

[Creetin]

I asked about a similar product for aquariums in the chemistry forum, and was directed here.
Skimming thru this thread i found i was already using this stuff in my pool. LOL
It works great, I wrote it off as i thought it would in no way be safe for my reef. Guess not in controlled additions.
It does cloud up my pool, and strips the alk right out.
The clarifier here i don't think would be reefsafe, JMO
What it does in my pool is weigh the precipitate down so i can vacuume it out. Same stuff i use when i shock the pool to clean out the dead algae.
Now if you can keep it in suspension and use an earth filter. Oops not a pool here. (Diatom filter) That would work too if you had a bare bottom tank and had a lot of flow.

 

[Reefski's]

or you can drip it into a small micron size filter sock. i use a 5 micron sock.

then you can just take out the sock and wash it.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

update on LaCl2 dosing

update on LaCl2 dosing

pix are worth at least a couple of words

*extremely low (to "no") phosphates in an aquarium that's obviously "overfed" (see livestock list)

*increased calcification rates seen in stony corals (do people use micrometers to measure growth rates?)

*improved water clarity (due to several factors using this method)

*no precip on glass (when using diluted LaCl2 in slow dosings)

the only negatives I've observed so far have been some minor reactions to heavier (milky) LaCl2 dosings by certain fishes, Tridacna and snails.

I'm currently thinking about replacing my 10 micron filters with 5 micron filters. This might improve the technique.

 

[Reefski's]

thank you for this information!

i like the idea of dripping it in and will start doing that.

i use a 5 micron sock. when i dose a lot it does cloud up the tank so i know it is not all getting abosebed in the sock even though the dose goes into the sock.

why do you think water clarity is improved?

what kind of reactions by livestock?

how often do you dose?

what is the maximum level of PO4 before you dose?

what do you dose to zero PO4. i read that on the reef PO4 levels are extremely low like 0.003ppm.

what do you use to measure PO4?

i know you probably aswered all these questions earlier in the thread and i have read most of it but i am getting old and forgetful.

a synopsis would be great.

i tried Vodka dosing and it didn't work for me. it was not until i started LC that my phosphates dropped and corals started to grow.

BEAUTIFUL PICTURE!

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

whoa!

whoa!

too many questions on a Sunday evening after some Labatt's

LaCl2 acts as a flocculent so it stands to reason that stuff in the water column "sticks" to it making it easier to adhere to a micron filter or protein skimmer bubble. (Simplistic terminology here-sorry!) This in turn improves water clarity. The results are amazing.

All the other questions were answered in this thread except how I measure PO4 levels:
I don't. (Not with any formal test kits, anyways.) I look at my aquarium and everything in it closely. (I know, I know... I'm nuts. Heard it all before. Some day I'll get the photometer thing.)

My dosing schedule is (now) basically once a week. The dosage I use (outlined earlier in this thread) should be cutting my PO4 levels in half each time I administer it.

 

[tmz]

Yep , nutrient levels in the upper reef are very low. Po4 in the .003ppm range or less , nitrates near zero. Neither is zero and neither depletes very much lower but remains constant even though it is taken up by corals which need some of it. 30 meters down the levels can be 3 to 5 times as high. So if you are running a mixed reef ultra low levels may be less than ideal . I test daily with a colorometer for PO4. It runs in my system between .04ppm and .07ppm. nitrates hold at between 2 and 4ppm per slaifiert tests.

As noted in an earlier post I use vodka,vinegar ,sugar as well as chaeto refugia and some gfo. I've used lanthanum before as well but have not had to use it since starting carbon dosing. LC works if you filter it well. The carbon dosing is laso holding nitrates down as well.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

update!

update!

My dosing schedule is (now) basically once a week. The dosage I use (outlined earlier in this thread) should be cutting my PO4 levels in half each time I administer it.

whoa! I'm no longer dosing this weekly. Once every two months is holding PO4 down to manageable levels

 

[radiata]

New Lanthanum Chloride article by Daniel Knop

New Lanthanum Chloride article by Daniel Knop

New Lanthanum Chloride article by Daniel Knop:
http://www.coralmagazine-us.com/content/foiling-phosphate

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

holy smokes!

holy smokes!

New Lanthanum Chloride article by Daniel Knop:
http://www.coralmagazine-us.com/content/foiling-phosphate

great link. I've never seen that article nor even read one issue of 'Coral' magazine. Check out the similarities of what Daniel Knop wrote and what I posted earlier today here:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1735828

great minds think alike

I should probably subscribe to this magazine.......

 

[kirsto71]

The product we can get in Australia is called Starver and it contains Lanthanum Glycolate (10%) in a wet slurry. As i am no chemist at the best of times could someone please explain the difference of this to the Lanthanum chloride that everyone else is talking about. I assume it performs similarly just the Lanthanum isnt bound to chloride???

 

[tmz]

I don't know. You might be better served, posting this question in the Chemistry forum.

 

[kirsto71]

Will do Tom.

Thanks

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

just saw this post

just saw this post

here's a link to the answers kirsto71 received in the Chemistry Forum:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1765351&highlight=Lanthanum+Glycolate

Cliff's answer here has me concerned:

According to this article the Starver should work ok.

Lanthanum chloride or lanthanum carboxylate for orthophosphate
removal in seawater aquarium - a feasibility study
http://aalso.org/2009presentations/ZhangWongOrthophosphateRemovalPaper.pdf

From this article:

"Although La(gly)3 is more efficient in phosphate removal, it decreased pH from 8.15±0.02 to 8.07±0.02 in the seawater (Figure 12), compared without significant pH decrease after treatment with either La(Cl)3 or Starver."

The Glycolate part will serve as a carbon source for bacterial growth. If enough is added, it may cause some bacterial blooms.

The lanthanum products will reduce your alkalinity significantly as do many acids.

For the safest results, you should run a .45 micron filter sock immediately after the application of any lanthanum product.

Firstly, I would recommend using a 10 micron sock (or other type of mechanical filter) in addition to good protein skimming while dosing any Lanthanum product. Additionally, I perform a wet skim water change while dosing Lanthanum and I suggest considering doing the same.
Secondly, although Lanthanum chloride reduces alkalinity it doesn't reduce pH the way that Lanthanum glycolate appears to. Low pH and alkalinity can pose significant risks to sensitive corals.
Thirdly, I have no idea how carbon source dosing will affect any aquarium undergoing lanthanum dosing. It would appear easy to crash a system dosing this stuff if you don't know what you're striving to acheive.

I'm still waiting to see Randy's reply.
In the meantime, I'd suggest diluting Lanthanum glycolate even more than one would Lanthanum chloride.

 

[captain7359]

Based on that article only 15% of the turbidity was removed with a 25 micron filter. I'm assuming that they are relating the turbidty to the precipitation and not other particles in the water. A 0.45 micron filter gave 100% removal, but that's just scarry to think how often that would ahve to be changed.

Have you noticed any of the gray "dust" settling in your sump after treatments Gary?

I'd be interested to try running a sand filter and injecting the LC into the water right before it goes into the filter. Anyone even running a sand filter around here?

I've still got one of these kicking around that could be set up as a trial.

Any idea how to backwash one of these to get the particles flused out once you've collected them.

 

[iamwrasseman]

wow i have alot of reading to do here ,checked out a few pages ant it seems real intriguing to me .now i gotta gp back and read it all .

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

IME those particular fluidized bed filters are a major PITA to work with and I never want to see another one again

There's a fellow on RC using a diatom filter. You might want to look into that, cap.
10 micron filter is the shnizz, Walt. Grey dust accumulates in the 10 micron bag. The bag clogs quickly especially if you dose heavily. My new dosing schedule is much lighter than previous. I (basically) dose an extremely small amount of dilute LaCl2- just enough to coat the bottom of the bag. This allows water level to rise up to the neck of the bag without overflowing the bag.

Lanthanum chloride heptahydrate has been used for many years by various private and commercial institutions here in the United States and abroad, to remove high levels of orthophosphates from fresh and brackish water systems (Disney World and Sea World of Orlando, Florida – information provided by request only), as well as the recreational pooland spa industry for over 20 years. Industry wide application rates have been denoted that lanthanum bonds to orthophosphate at a ratio of 1:1. Simply stated, it takes 1ppm lanthanum to remove 1ppm orthophosphate from water. As dry weight, this equates to 16 pounds of 35% lanthanum chloride heptahydrate to remove 1ppm orthophosphate (PO43) from 1-acre foot of water. This ionic attraction takes place within several seconds of contact of the lanthanum and the orthophosphate in both the water column and/or sediment. Lanthanum retains ionic bonding at pH levels between 5 and 11, making it highly useable in most water systems for orthophosphate reduction. The lanthanum acts as a flocculent, capturing the orthophosphate and settling to the lake or stream floor, or in recirculating system, being trapped for removal by mechanical filtration. Once bonded, it removes the orthophosphate from utilization by both microbial and algal species. Unless exposed to highly acidic or alkaline waters, the ionic bond will not release. As lanthanum has an ionic bonding level comparable to sodium, lanthanum will also bond and flocculate carbonate (CO3), arsenic, selenium, and chromium. Application rates can vary due to the presence of these other minerals. Lanthanum is widely used in Japan to remove both arsenic V and arsenic X from freshwater drinking supplies (Water Environment Research, Vol. 71, pp. 299-306,1999. S. Tokunaga, S. Yokoyama, and S.A. Wasay) meeting the Japanese Effluent and Drinking Water Standards, by treating at a 3:1 ratio of lanthanum to arsenic.

 

[captain7359]

Simply stated, it takes 1ppm lanthanum to remove 1ppm orthophosphate from water.

Somewhere in my pages of reading I seen that 1:1 theoretical ratio, but experimentally it ended up being like 4:1 lanthanum to phosphate. It was theorized that reactions with other chemicals (CaCo3 maybe) were the cause. Either way the stuff works and I plan on trying it.

Are the API kits what everyone is using to get readings down to the 0.01 accuracy level?

How are your tangs and clams reacting to the doses now that you've knocked your levels down? How long did it take and how much LC did it take to get your tank down? What were your starting and final ppm's?

I'm still a bit sketchy on just letting any of the stuff end up in the tank and want to see what has been done to best get the precipitate out of solution and out of the tank. I'd like to automate it to some extent or at least have a more constant dosing regimen just for stability issues.

Anyone see any merit in running these like a CA or sulphur reactor where you have a reactor with constant internal circulation, a constant reagent(Lanthanum) injection and a constant metered flow of tank water being pumped through it? Basically a CA reactor with sand as the media and lanthanum as the CO2. ust have to find a way to get the precipitate out.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

I used Hanna colorimeter to monitor low range PO4 accurately.
I see no negative reactions in anything anymore- probably because I've decreased dosage significantly.
The dosage I described in this thread effectively halved phosphate levels in my aquarium after completely dosed.

JMO based on what I've seen but this Lanthanum isn't something you'd want to dose constantly into your aquarium via some type of automatic drip. You want to dose and remove it ASAP.